I’m excited for Gian to go ahead and begin in a minute here talking about social media accessibility. So I met Marcelle at the AHEAD Conference over the summer, and it was just really exciting to learn about these webinars and what ADA Conference Center has going on. The ADA… so my role at AccessibilityOz is that I do marketing and business development, and it's a really exciting time to be in Web Accessibility. I'd like to introduce you to Gian—Gian Wild. She's been doing Web Accessibility since 1998. She spent six years on the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines working group, contributing to WCAG 2, so she can tell you a little bit more about that if you have questions at the end, but today she is going to be talking specifically about social media and accessibility. So Gian Wild, go ahead.
Thanks a lot. Thanks, Marcelle, and thank you for having me. I hope everyone is okay with my Australian accent. One of the things I am going to say is I will probably say mobile as mow-bile. So what I mean is mobile. I hope everyone's well, and I am really looking forward to today. Accessibility is, of course, a really big deal at the moment, and you know, I am actually speaking at a range of events about social media and accessibility over the next few months. Sorry, I've got, I think, four conferences in the U.S. up until the end of November, so please have a look at our website or ask me questions afterwards, and if you happen to be in the area or attending any of those conferences, please come up and introduce yourself to myself and hopefully Eliza.
So starting today, I just wanted to introduce you to my team as of about a year ago. We have probably doubled in size since then. And one of the—it's my company. I started it in 2011, so we are four and a half years old. And I wanted to be able to mimic the sense of people with disabilities in the general population in our organization. So it was actually—I try to have at least 20% of our staff have some kind of disability of some sort, so we proactively hire people with disabilities. But looking at our staff there, you wouldn't necessarily think that anyone has a disability, and that's what's really important to know when it comes to people with disabilities is often it's hidden in plain sight.
So for example, over the last four and a half years, we've probably had about 30 staff, and we've had people with a whole range of different disabilities and using different assistive technologies. So we've had three people use speech-to-text programs. We've had two people use on-screen magnifiers. We've had some reliant only on the keyboard. We've had five screen reader users. Then we've actually got some people who have specific disabilities that don't rely on assistive technology, so someone with epilepsy. I, myself, get migraines, so epilepsy and migraines can be triggered by inaccessible websites. I have had migraines three or four times in certain testing I've conducted, and that kind of testing, of course, the person that has epilepsy, they don't do that testing at all because what would trigger a migraine in me would trigger an epileptic fit in her. Then we've got someone with fibromyalgia, and that affects her work a lot because she struggles to make it through a full day. She works half days most of the time. And we've had a few people with dyslexia. And interestingly, we've had a couple of people with dyslexia where they've had difficulty reading, but we've had someone with dyslexia who has no trouble reading whatsoever but actually has trouble writing. And so they use a speech-to-text program to fill out forms and things like that.
So if we just go back to that original slide, you know, you look at the people there, and you wouldn't think that any of us had a disability. You know, there's no guide dogs, there's no canes, there's no people in wheelchairs. And yet, you know, at least 20%—I think we are at 35% at the moment—have disabilities.
So it's important to remember it's not just about vision impairments. In the United States, there's about 38 million people with disabilities. In the world, it's about 1 billion people. And we need to remember that, of course, some people have multiple disabilities. There's 38 million in order of magnitude, 20 million have physical impairments. 14 million have cognitive impairments. 11 million are, therefore, hard of hearing, and 7 million are vision impaired. So in fact, of the four groups that are affected by inaccessible websites, the smallest group is vision impairments, but that's often what people think when they talk about Web accessibility. They think it's just about vision, and that's definitely not the case.
Very briefly, Marcelle talked about this before, but we have a whole bunch of services, and basically we focus only on Web accessibility. We don't do anything else. Anything to do with Web accessibility, we do mostly audits and building websites and things like that, and user testing for people with disabilities.
We have four products, and if you are interested in these, then please feel free to ask questions at the end or look at our website or contact us. We have OzPlayer, which is our—the world's first fully accessible video player that can play YouTube videos and things like that. OzART, which is an automated accessibility tool that is actually fully accessible to accessibility testers. Unlike a lot of the other automated accessibility testing tools out there. OzWiki, our database of accessibility errors and solutions. We've got, I think, close to a thousand examples—sorry—errors, and they have examples, screenshots, and solutions. It's quite helpful with developers. And we do talk a little bit about BrowseAloud, which is an assistive technology.
I want to move into why social media is so important for people with disabilities. So this is taken from a report that basically there are five or six reasons why—the reasons behind social media use. There's personal, which you are all aware of, things like examples including a creating online commentary of personal thoughts, sharing photos adding social events. So think Facebook and that kind of stuff. And that's really important in terms of having a relationship with people outside of your circle. You know, social networking is very important in terms of people who are isolated because they are in a rural region, or they might have a physical disability which means that actually traveling to certain events is difficult to them. So social networking is incredibly important.
Then there's work, so things like creating resumes, creating professional connections is incredibly important, and discussing job opportunities. So you know, I belong to a whole bunch of accessibility groups on LinkedIn, and you know, I follow the # A 11Y tag on Twitter, and you know, there's many of these that get messaged around through Twitter and on these LinkedIn groups, and of course, if you couldn't access that social media, then you would be missing out on those.
Entertainment is the third reason. So things like sharing videos, following discussion from celebrities, discussing strategies in online games. There's an idea that people with disabilities behave differently from the general public, and that's not the case. There's a video if you are interested about a woman who comes home from work at the end of the day, and she gets on Second Life, which is an online gaming experience and multiplayer game, and she is in a wheelchair. And she performed this experiment where she went into this club in Second Life and went as a "norm," which is a person without a disability, and she chatted to people and talked to people in Second Life and had a great time. And because in Second Life you can actually mimic the disability that you have in real life, she left the club and she came back in a wheelchair, which is termed a "wheelie," and most of the people that she had talked to before completely ignored her. So there is still a level of discrimination when it comes to people with disabilities, but it also –
Gian, I am sorry to interrupt, but can you slow down just a little bit because our captioner is trying to keep up with you.
I apologize. Sorry.
No problem. Thank you, though.
So you know, online gaming is certainly a big part of a lot of people's lives, so that's important as well. The remaining two reasons behind social media is provision of goods and services. So you know, including sharing information about a product, responding to user feedback about a product, accessing government services. So for example, I was on a flight, and they offloaded the plane, and for some reason we couldn't get into the airport. About a hundred meters away, there was an open door where someone—a group of people from another plane was actually going into the airport. And we stood there for an hour and a half while they disembarked and watched them, and then people got on the plane, and we're like why can't we just walk that hundred meters to get into the airport? And I actually tweeted to the owner—to the airline, and I said, you know, this is ridiculous. And they responded immediately, and about five minutes later, someone came along and escorted us through that open door. So you know, it can make a lot of difference having access to social media. And especially when you are in a particular situation.
Lastly, education. And this is incredibly important. So things like participation in online classes and sharing learning resources. You know, in accessibility, we are always learning. It's a kind of industry that is changing rapidly, and you know, it really (Inaudible) with updates to things like screen readers, but you also need to learn new techniques such as HTML 5 and ARIA. So you just are continually learning. And the way that I keep up with what I need to know is through Twitter. And LinkedIn. And to try and find that information without those social networks would be incredibly difficult because those social networks, they kind of filter the information that's out there. You know, the more relevant something is, the more interesting it is, then the more tweets it will get, the more likely it will, you know, reach more people, that kind of stuff.
And of course, online courses, online classes. Even if you are going to—you are physically attending a university, there's going to be some kind of online component for that education, and it's not necessarily going to be accessible. And I must say, you know, I find it quite heartening that there has been some accessibility cases in this area because it is something that people need to really be aware of.
And I must say I went to university a very, very long time ago, but when I went to university, they were just putting stuff online, and we had a lecturer who thought he was a (Inaudible) so he decided he was going to put his lectures online, and I was pretty busy. I was working at the time. And so I got to a couple of nights just before the exam and thought, okay, I am going to download all these lectures and read them. And he had put this Flash splash page in front of it which took about four minutes, and it was just a bunch of stars moving around in different directions. But the problem was in order to download one lecture, you had to always go to that splash page, and we had very limited bandwidth back then, and so we actually—by the time I downloaded three lectures, I actually used up all the bandwidth that I was allowed for that week, and so I couldn't access the rest of the lectures.
So not purely an accessibility issue, but you know, something that wouldn't be accessible, such as Flash, certainly not back then, and you know, there was no way to get around it or to get that information. So you know, it does affect everybody, not just people with disabilities. So in terms of social networking by age group, social networking is—I am just going to check the captioner. And I am going to slow down. Please keep telling me to slow down if I need to.
In terms of social networking by age group, as you can see, social networking has—is increasing every single year with the exception of 2014, so the 18 to 29 group, where they dipped a little bit. But basically, there are four groups of people here, so age 18 to 29, 90% of people aged 18 to 29 are using social networking. People aged 30 to 49, 75% of them are using social networking. And people aged 50 to 64, 50% are using social networking, which I found very interesting, but even more interesting is that people age 65 and older are 30% of them use social networking. That's a really, really large number, and it's something that everyone is getting involved in, and it's constantly increasing. Every year it's increasing.
Social media is really important, especially when it comes to employment. Employment is incredibly important for people with disabilities. I know in Australia that people with disabilities often are discriminated against in terms of, you know, being hired. When I started AccessibilityOz, it was incredibly important to me that the location that we worked from, our office, was fully accessible. And yet for a small business, it was very, very difficult for us to find an accessible location. So there were always stairs or there were always, you know, maybe you could get to the office fine, but you couldn't get to the kitchen. There wasn't enough room for a wheelchair. That kind of thing.
So we are actually in the back half of a building which we modified, we physically modified so that it was fully accessible. And it was just because it was so difficult to find something, we had to build something ourselves. So we have had people who work for us in wheelchairs that can get around. But you know, if I had decided as a small business that I wasn't going to do something like that, then we would never have been able to hire those people in wheelchairs. And unemployment for people with disabilities is at 10.2%. So 1 in 10 people with disabilities are unemployed. And the figure is probably a lot higher. It's probably underreported. There's probably a number of people that would like to work but, you know, don't access unemployment services.
It's really important also to note that the percentage of recruiters who use LinkedIn is 95%, and that's a huge number. So you can imagine if you are a client for a job and you are not represented in LinkedIn, the recruiter is going to think that that's a little bit strange.
And the percentage of HR managers that have reconsidered hiring a candidate after looking at social media is 55%. So you know, it's a huge number that look at social media and change or make their decisions based on social media.
So there's a bunch of reasons why social media isn't accessible. There's, you know, I suppose we could talk for hours on, you know, the philosophy behind it, why these real big companies haven't put money into making their systems fully accessible. But really, there's only one reason that you need to worry about, and that is the fact that it changes constantly.
So this happened about six months ago on Facebook. I noticed that for probably a day, all of minus feeds had HTML in them. So this is a picture of Facebook from an alternative media newspaper that I use in Australia, online newspaper. And the little image says underneath (HTML). So the HTML is showing up in Facebook, whereas before, a day before, it didn't. And the reason why it's not that all of a sudden all of those online newspapers decided to put HTML into their headings. It's that Facebook decided to display their headings differently. And all of a sudden the HTML showed up.
Now, most of the online newspapers picked it up pretty quickly, and within a day, almost all of the HTML was gone. But with this website, it took them about a week and a half. And often it's just got to do with the fact that they were posting things to Facebook and no one was actually checking how it was showing up, and eventually a week or so later they all realized that its code was coming through and they had to change their headings.
So the one big reason why social media is not accessible is because it changes very, very frequently, and you are never going to know when it changes. So the thing is that it might be you could do some testing, you could do some user testing with people with disabilities and determine that a social media site is fully accessible, which we are going to talk about later about how they are not, but let's say one day you tested them and they were all fully accessible. The problem is you don't know if that's going to be the case tomorrow. And they don't advertise when they change things, they don't tell people what it is that they change. You can't be confident that any changes that they make will be accessible changes.
I am going to talk about Facebook and some of the accessibility issues with Facebook now. So Facebook compared to the other social media sites changes incredibly frequently. That's one of the biggest issues with Facebook. It's also known as one of the more inaccessible social media networks. There has been some improvements. There used to be a CAPTCHA on sign-up. A CAPTCHA is where you fill out a form and then you get some squiggly text that you have to write down what the text is. Now, they're completely inaccessible because they are specifically created to stop robots from filling out these forms, so you can't put what that squiggly text is in the ALT attribute to be read out by screen reader users for people who are vision impaired. Often with a visual CAPTCHA, sometimes the person provides an audio CAPTCHA, which then says this is the text that you need to write in the field, but you know, sometimes they don't work. Sometimes you can't actually activate them properly. There's a whole bunch of different reasons why they are sometimes not accessible. So CAPTCHAs are a really bad idea, and having the CAPTCHA on a sign-up process is definitely problematic.
In fact, (Inaudible) is vision impaired, and for a while we used Gmail for our mail system, and he couldn't actually create a user account because they had CAPTCHA on sign-up. And he doesn't rely on a screen reader, he relies on an on-screen magnifier, yet he still couldn't finish that form correctly to create the user account.
The other thing is this were no headings in Facebook previously, so you just get a whole bunch of news feeds. You couldn't jump from news item to news item, which made it very difficult to find what it was that you would be looking for. The issues that are with Facebook now are things like it's not fully keyboard accessible. It has very low contrast keyboard focus indicator. Now, those of us—there are incredibly problematic issues. There a lot of people who rely only on the keyboard. They can't use a mouse or touchscreen. And if you can't access everything using just a keyboard, then, you know, that system's not fully accessible to you. But the other problem is the keyboard focus indicator. So the keyboard focus indicator is what tells you where your keyboard is currently located on the page, and so you can tell that by the fact that whatever item you have apparently focused on is—changes color or outlines or something like that. We'll show an example in a moment, but the keyboard focus indicator on Facebook is very, very low. So it's very difficult to determine where it is on the site, and therefore, it's very difficult to use it with a keyboard. The order of columns are incorrect. And I will explain that a little bit about—I'll explain that in the actual example. Then the other issue is that zooming breaks the site. There's a lot of people who, you know, have a moderate vision impairment, a mild or moderate vision impairment, and they actually zoom in on the content through things that increase the text size, or they might have an on-screen magnifier. It's really important that that still functions when you zoom in on the content, and that doesn't happen on Facebook. It's not fully VoiceOver accessible. VoiceOver is the screen reader that is used on iOS devices, mobiles and tablets, and it's quite problematic with VoiceOver.
And there's no ability to add ALT attributes to images. There's kind of a, I suppose, a hack that you can try and implement, but yeah, there's no real way to add an ALT attribute to an image for screen reader users.
So this is the first example of keyboard accessibility. This is an example of an image I uploaded, and the keyboard, you can actually access some information on that image. Basically the only information you can do with the keyboard is access the close button. So you can close and, therefore, not upload that image. But that's all you can do with the keyboard.
However, when you hover over the image, two other options show up. One is tag this image, so you can tag people, things like that. And then there's the edit this image, and it's only through editing image can you add a caption, and the caption is basically the hack to get around adding ALT attributes. So adding a caption is only accessed through the mouse, not through the keyboard.
This second example shows the keyboard focus on the little world icon. On the left is the world icon without keyboard focus, and on the right is the world icon with keyboard focus. So you can see that the change is incredibly subtle. The icon on the left is kind of like a medium blue on a lighter medium blue background, and the item on the right with keyboard focus is a darker medium blue on a medium blue background. So it's almost impossible to see the difference.
This here is the keyboard focus indicator on an actual text navigation item, and once again, you can see that the background is just a slighter blue than the rest of the items. And this doesn't meet color contrast requirement, so this would definitely not be accessible to a whole bunch of different users. This is the order of columns. Now, the order of content on Facebook moves across the top of the page first, so it goes through the search bar, the profile information, home, find friends, notifications, those kind of things. And then it reads down the left-hand column, which is all your apps and friends and interests and things like that. But then it doesn't move to the center column. It jumps to the right-hand column, which has, you know, your people that you may know and the chat and things like that. And only after you have gone through that right-hand column does it jump to the middle column, which is where you can add a status update, photos, video, create a photo album. And then it goes do the middle section in the center, which is about adding friends. And unfortunately, what happens is when you tab through these options, they infinitely add content, if that makes sense. So each time you tab past a friend, it adds another friend. And then you tab past that friend, and then it adds another friend. And then you tab past that friend, and then it adds another friend. And it keeps going, and there's no way to actually skip past that content. So this is basically a keyboard trap in Facebook. And I didn't investigate it enough to determine if there was some kind of way to get past it, so I didn't want to highlight that too much, but it is definitely a problem.
And the thing is, is that I might not have been able to find a way to get through that particular feature. And even if there was a way, you know, I work in accessibility, you know, all day every day, and if I can't figure out an easy way to get past that, then, you know, the general user isn't going to be able to. So that's one reason why I didn't look into it further.
But so why is this important? So there's a couple of reasons. So firstly, this is the way that the keyboard will access the page, so the keyboard will actually go from the top to the left-hand column, through the right-hand column, and then through the middle. The other thing that will happen is the screen reader will access the page. Now, for people who use screen readers because they are vision impaired, that's not such a problem because they have no idea what the page actually looks like. But there are actually people that use screen readers and see the visual page as well, and those people who often have cognitive impairments have difficulty reading content, so what they do is they read—they use a screen reader to read aloud the content on the page just to reinforce what's on the page as they are looking at it.
So you can imagine going from the top to the left-hand column, then jumping to the right-hand column, and then moving to the middle would be incredibly complicated and confusing for those users. So this is when you zoom in on the site, and there is a requirement under the accessibility guidelines WCAG 2, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, that you be able to zoom to 200%. So at 200%, if you open up the little world icon, it has a little option that says who can see my stuff, who can see my future posts, and some other things. And then there's a pop-up on the left-hand side that is white text on a black background, and all you can see is that pop-up is new privacy shortcuts. Visit your—and then it's the next line, go to review photos you're tagged, and then it's the next line, things you've hidden from your—that's it. You can't read that at all. And that might be very valuable information.
This is another example of a problem with the zooming. When you hover over an item, you get what's called a toolkit, which tells you, you know, especially if it's an icon or an image, it tells you what that actually means. So this is a little squiggly arrow icon with a circle around it. And the tool tip says—well, you can't really see what it says because you only see the bottom half of the text. The top half of the text is actually overlapped by the top navigation, the blue top navigation, so it says top trends, and I know that because I've used Facebook quite a lot, but the top half of the text is completely cut off and wouldn't be able to be read by anyone.
Another example we are seeing is with the chat. So when you open the chat on the left-hand side, you open it normally, you can search for people, you can add text and things like that. At the top of the chat, which is a pop-up, you see the text chat, and you have a little icon which allows you to change the chat settings. When you zoom in, which is the right-hand image, that top section which has the fittings is also overlapped. So someone using that wouldn't be able to change their settings.
And this is VoiceOver. So you've got a suggested post, so basically an advertisement, and this is VoiceOver on an iPhone. And they've got a little drop-down arrow on the right-hand side, and that drop-down arrow allows you to actually add that post to your news page. That dropdown arrow can never be accessed by VoiceOver. They are ads, so that's probably not that important, but that's certainly a requirement that people would want to be able to do.
On the right-hand side, they call this a swipe trap. And actually, I have got a mobile, an accessibility article being published right now, actually—half an hour ago—on swipe. So if you are interested in mobile and accessibility, have a look at that and maybe we can send out the URL. But the swipe trap is what I am going to talk about in my next mobile accessibility article, and this is basically swipe is one of the ways that you navigate using VoiceOver, and so you can swipe to get to your friends, to get to basically the right-hand content in Facebook, but you can't swipe to go back to the news page. So you are basically trapped in that Friends thing, and the only way to escape that is to actually close Facebook and start again, which is why we call it a swipe trap because we are naming it after the (Inaudible) trap, where you get trapped in a particular feature and the only way to fix that is to close the browser and start again.
The other thing Facebook has is called infinite scrolling. So I mentioned that a little bit with the add friends. With Facebook, when you get to the bottom of your news page, it automatically adds more posts, and then you get to the bottom of those posts, and it automatically adds more posts. Then you get to the bottom, and it automatically adds more posts. There's no way to stop that, say hey, I've had enough. This is problematic for a number of reasons. Firstly, screen reader users, they can pull out a list of links or headings in a page, and this obviously won't pull out any of the posts that are added through this infinite scrolling method. So they won't get a proper idea of what's actually on the page.
It's also a problem because at the bottom of Facebook, you have five icons. You've got news feed, request, messenger, notifications, and more. And these icons provide very important functionality for Facebook, and so you can't actually get to those icons in your news feed because every time you try and move to the bottom of the page, it adds more posts.
Now, there is a way to get to that content, and that's if you actually open a particular post because if you open a particular post, then you will have a discrete ending, and then you can go to those options there. But it's a little bit of a work-around, and you know, as I mentioned, it's something that, you know, I know and most Accessibility Specialists know, but most users wouldn't necessarily know how to get to that information. Or would a screen reader user even know that information was there for them to access?
I am just moving on to slide 33 now, and this is the ALT attributes issue. So many people go to the Facebook session, yes, you can add ALT attributes, but what they actually mean is you can add a caption. This is something that appears on top of your image and does get read to screen readers, but it's actually visible to all users.
So if you have a look at this example here, it's a picture of our brochure, and it says "we focus on accessibility so you don't have to." There's some quotes that you can't really read the content of. And then it's got the link, it's got our logos for our products, OzART, Oz player. If I was to want an ALT attribute for that, I would say it's got a beautiful image with a bunch of pencils, a picture of a bunch of pencils, we focus on accessibility so you don't have to. Products include OzART, Oz player—but why would you do that to an image when everybody is going to see that content? The whole point of an ALT attribute is it is equivalent content to what's being presented by the image. So you don't actually want to repeat that content that is actually in the image itself. So you know, that's a real problem.
Moving on to slide 34, I'm going to talk about YouTube.
Slide 35. The biggest problem with YouTube is all videos auto-play. That means basically they play as soon as you load the page. This can be a really serious problem because there's—you know, if someone is using a screen reader, then the audio or video is going to overlap the audio of the screen reader. There have been some accessibility improvements, so basically, the embedded YouTube file that you can embed on your site and the YouTube player on the YouTube site are almost fully keyboard accessible, but not completely. Both are not fully accessible either. Keyboard accessibility isn't 100% either.
Slide 36. So major YouTube accessibility Housh is there is actually a keyboard trap, and it's not fully keyboard accessible. The order of items is incorrect. Uploading a radio is not accessible. Zooming breaks the site. It's not fully VoiceOver accessible, and the auto-captioning is problematic.
This here is a screenshot of the YouTube page. The first—the biggest—one of the biggest problems is the keyboard focus doesn't actually start at the beginning of the page. It starts in the search bar, and so the first item to receive focus is that search bar. Then if the user tabs, they actually tab backwards to the YouTube menu and the YouTube icon, so that could be incredibly confusing to people.
The third item that received keyboard focus is the upload notifications and the profile image, and then after that, you tab into what is an ad for Colorado, a Holden, something like that. And that add is actually a keyboard trap. So you can't close it, you can't escape from it. You just—the only option you have is to close the browser and start again and not go back to YouTube.
Slide 38. This is a video that—as I'm sure you are aware, YouTube has these ads that pop up which are quite annoying, but you know, the whole point of the ads is that you can close them after a certain period of time. Now, you probably can't see it, but the little close icon on that ad does actually have keyboard focus. You can tell because it's got a little bit of a blue background. So it has keyboard focus, but you can't actually activate the close button in any way. So you can't press enter, you can't press space, you can't do anything to actually close that ad using just the keyboard.
Another serious problem is when you actually get to—sorry, slide 39—when you actually get to video page, once again, once you load a video page, you get forced to a particular section in the page, which is after the video. So the keyboard focus begins at the heading, Honest Trailers - Aladdin, which is the video in this. So (Inaudible)—will start playing. And if you are using a keyboard, if you wanted to stop that video from playing, you would actually have to backwards tab. So shift-tab, which goes—moves the tab focus backwards, over ten times in order to access the pause option. And I spent probably half a day testing YouTube, and it was only towards the end of that half a day of testing did I determine that that was what had actually happened. Prior to that, I actually thought that there was no way to pause that video. So that's going to be a real problem for screen reader users because then they don't know where they are on the page. They don't know that their focus is after the video. So they won't know to go backwards to pause that video. Now, there might be some kind of way for, you know, people to automatically pause that video, a combination of keyboard shortcuts or things like that, but I don't know what it is, and this is what I do for a living. I did quite specifically not search for YouTube accessibility features because I wanted to see if there was something obvious in the YouTube itself that would say, oh, by the way, here are your keyboard shortcuts. I didn't want to Google for that because that's not what general users are going to do. People with disabilities often don't identify necessarily as having a disability. They don't necessarily even know that these things exist. So I didn't, you know—I wanted to be kind of a user, and you know, try and figure it out my own way. That's what I found.
Slide 40. Now, this is a really problematic issue. I don't know why they have this arrow, but in order to upload a video, you have to activate this really big arrow button. It's coded as a button. However, it's coded as an HTML 5 button, and it doesn't have an alternative. So a screen reader is not going to actually read any content with that button. So there's just not going to be any way for a screen reader user to upload videos.
Slide 41. So this is without zooming. At 100%, you can see in the top right-hand corner an upload button, and there's a notification button as well, as well as the profile. But when you zoom in at 200%, that upload and that notification, those buttons disappear completely. So at 200%, you can't actually upload videos to YouTube.
Slide 42. Now, this was an interesting one. So this is when you zoom in, at the bottom of the page, you can select options like you want the language, restricted mode, et cetera. If you select language English in order to select language, your focus is moved to the very right of the page. So you select the language option, and then all of a sudden all you can really see is Australia, restricted mode off, history. And the different languages, et cetera, that have been activated by selecting that option are actually to the left of the page and much further down the page. So you know, once again, you can imagine if you, you know, are zooming in, you wouldn't know where you were or what had happened.
Slide 43. So screen readers aren't all that great at reading capitalized text, so sometimes they read it letter by letter, sometimes they misread the word entirely. So this is the Facebook mobile app, and using VoiceOver, under the Home option, there is the text “BEST OF YOUTUBE" ALL IN CAPITAL LETTERS. IT'S ACTUALLY READ BY THE VOICEOVER AS "BEST OF YATOOB." So problematic.
Slide 44. So we have a swipe trap in VoiceOver as well. So when you go to the YouTube mobile app, when you first open it up, the search feature is highlighted, and all the content underneath is kind of blacked out, and that's because the search feature has focus, and so if you type something in and you hit search, then you can go to a cute little video and watch it. But if you wanted to exit that search feature and just go to, you know, your profile page or just see what's on the home page of YouTube or something like that, you can't actually exit that search page using VoiceOver. You can focus on the page underneath the part that's blacked out using VoiceOver, but only by tapping on the mobile screen. And so you know, you just—you can imagine someone who is vision impaired would have to hope they tapped on the right region of the screen and hadn't activated the keyboard or anything like that. But if they do manage to tap onto that black area, that grayed-out area, the VoiceOver will start reading that content. However, the search still remains highlighted at the top. And if you use the feature to go back to the top of the page, then you actually get straight back to that search feature. You can't go back to the top of the page. So there's no way.
And captioning. I know maybe this is my favorite YouTube error, but the automatic captioning is just—it's really, really bad. We've done a whole lot of testing for different Australian government websites, and we've come across two different Prime Ministers and one Premiere, where they had videos on their sites, someone had used the automatic captioning feature, and the captions actually had that Prime Minister—which is like your President—or that Premier, which I guess is a bit like your mayors—actually had people swearing in the captions. So when we saw them, we called them up and told them, and they took those videos down and captioned them appropriately.
This is from a fantastic video called the Jamaican vacation. You can access YouTube, I suggest that you go and look it up. It is very, very funny. But basically, it's about a couple of actors that act out a skit, and then they upload it to YouTube. They turn on the automatic captioning. They download those captions, and they act out those captions. Then they upload it to YouTube again, and then they automatically caption it, they download those captions, and act that out again. So if the captions were accurate, then basically they would be acting out the same skit three times. In fact, of course, that's not the case, and in this example, the guy is saying, Ah, man, just hold the phone up in the air and let me hear the ocean. And the captions say, uh red, just hold the phone up in the end of the Indians. Now, not accessible, not accurate. The other thing about the captions is—and I just looked at this maybe in the last few months, last year. They have this kind of blurring over the text on the captions, so it's very difficult to read. It's kind of a gray with kind of like a gray blur in the text. I'm not quite sure where they do that, and I don't know whether it can actually be changed by the user.
Slide 46, and I am going to talk about Twitter. Twitter is actually mostly accessible. There have been some accessibility improvements. It's now fully keyboard accessible. For a while they couldn't tweet or retweet with just a keyboard. They have also removed the CAPTCHA on sign-up. So kudos for them. It is not fully VoiceOver accessible, but the issues are minor. When you are on the Find people tab, you can search by tailored or popular, and it's basically an on/off switch? So it's popular is off, tailored is off. You can't access those links with the VoiceOver. And when you are actually in the main page, the little bird icon at the top and the New Tweets option at the top can't be accessed with VoiceOver and don't actually get read by VoiceOver.
So those are the reasons why social media networks are currently not accessible. And if you do manage to come to any of my presentations on social media accessibility in the future, I will have done all this testing all over again because, of course, social media networks change all the time. But I am going to talk now a little bit about how you actually make your social media accessible.
Step one, contact details. So you need to make sure your contact information is on your social media account page. So you should list a primary phone number and an email address where a user can reach your agency with questions and provide, where you can, a link to your agency website that lists the appropriate contact information. Now, I would recommend that you make sure that contact information is an actual person, not a generic email address. But it depends, of course, how large your organization is.
Step two, repeat content. Make your social media available through your website, so every time you post something to Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube, make sure it's actually hosted on your website somewhere as well. You can do that by implementing some kind of widget on your website that you know when you post Twitter, it automatically updates your website. We do see a lot of videos that are on the YouTube channel that are not on the main website. And it's important also that if you are talking about, say, a competition or, you know, an event that's happening soon, it's not enough for that just to be on the Events section of your site or, you know, a page 30 options down. You should highlight that content as well. So make it a news item or put it on your slide show on your homepage or something like that. Provide options for daily digests so that if people can't use these systems, you know, you can email them at the end of the day or the end of the week, you know, at the end of the month, depending on how often you make changes. Provide easy points of entry for more information. So when you are in—when you are posting to things like Twitter and Facebook, don't just post to your homepage, but link to the actual section that's relevant, but also, once again, make sure that anything that's really important or time sensitive is easily accessed from your homepage and your news feed. And of course, post your social media to multiple outlets, and post the same thing to multiple outlets because, you know, some systems are more accessible than others.
Step three, provide alternative apps. And I will talk about that a little bit later, but we are running out of time. Provide contact details to any social media support or accessibility teams within your organization. Provide links to the social media accessibility tips and support. Don't assume just because you can Google them and find Facebook accessibility that your users know how to do that too. And provide links to alternative apps and websites that create an accessible interface for all that social media.
Clear and simple language, step four. So use camel case. So that means where you are running two words together for a hashtag or something like that, capitalize the first letter of each word. So if you are going to hashtag audio webinars, you would capitalize the A on audio and the W on webinars. Avoid abbreviations where possible. Do limit hashtags and add them to the end of your tweets. Avoid misspellings. That can be very confusing for users. Where linking to others' content on YouTube, warn user of auto-play, the lack of transcripts, captions, or audio descriptions, if they don't have them. If you know where they can find that information, make sure you link to that too. And consider testing your social media with your users, and consider additionally, if you are a large organization, consider actually contacting those social media networks and saying, hey, you know, we really want to be able to use your network, but we are not confident that it's fully accessible. This is the experience that we've had. Can you tell us what you are going to do about that? And some of those steps from redacted from digital.gov. Some specific tips for making Facebook accessible.
Moving to slide 56. Firstly, add captions to images, which I talked about earlier. Link transcripts for videos, and when it comes to videos, you should load videos in YouTube, add captions there, and then link to them in Facebook because there's no real way to add captions in Facebook.
Slide 57, there are alternative methods to the desktop interface. There is a product called—a mobile web app called Facially HD, which is—FacelyHD, which is fairly accessible, and m the Facebook.com, so it is considered more accessible than the Facebook mobile app. YouTube, specific tips to make YouTube accessible.
Moving on to slide 59. You need to, if you are going to link to YouTube, you need to warn users of the auto-play. You should also make sure that there is a transcript, captions, and audio descriptions for all videos. And recommend alternative methods to the desktop interface. There is a system called the Accessible Interface to YouTube, Accessible YouTube, and the ICANT. And basically, what that does is you can go to those pages, you put in a YouTube URL, and it will play the YouTube video in one of those accessible desktop interfaces. Alternatively, the things that you can do is actually host the videos on your own website and then, make sure, of course, you are hosting them in an accessible video player. So the two accessible video players that are out there at the moment are our player, OzPlayer, and the PayPal accessible HTML 5 video player. Now, I am doing some future engagements on video accessibility, so if you would like more information about that.
Twitter, specific tips to making Twitter accessible.
Slide 63. You should describe photos and videos or provide a link to the description. So whenever I post something with an image, I usually say ALT follows, and the second tweet is an alternative text format. And consider preceding the tweets with a PIC, audio, or video in square bracts. That's a recommendation from digital.gov, but I've then actually seen that implemented. And I have followed the accessibility Twitter stream as much as possible, and I have never seen it implemented, so I don't think it's really something that people are doing at the moment. And recommend alternative methods to the desktop interface. There is a product called EasyChirp, and there is the Twitterific mobile app, which is really good. It allows users to change the color contrast to something that fits them better. It does a lot of—allows a lot of increasing text size and things like that. It's very good. And that's all from me. Thank you for your time. I just wanted to say very quickly before they move on to questions that we actually have a special for you guys to thank you for listening for the last hour. We've got a thing called an accessibility health check, which looks at the most serious WCAG 2 issues on your site, issues a 10 to 15-page report, consisting of descriptions of accessibility compliance of your template, your general content, so the text and your body, and technical content, like slide shows and videos and things like that. Impact statement, a paragraph on the impact on people with disabilities, and the other thing we are offering is a formal accessibility audit of your entire website, which is often a 100 to 150-page report consisting of accessibility errors, examples in your site and solutions, and it also has an impact statement.
The accessibility health check is normally $6,000, and we are offering it to you guys for $3,000. The accessibility audit is normally $10,000, and we are offering it for $6,000. It's available until the 30th of November. You can pay up front via invoice or credit card. If you are interested, please feel free to email us at email@example.com. And quote the "ADA Audio Conference Special."
So thank you very much for your time, and I am here for questions.
Operator, will you please come on and give the telephone participants directions on how to submit their questions?
Sure. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question at this time, please press * and the 1 key on your touchtone telephone. That's * 1 if you have a question.
We are going to start with a question that was put into the Chat room. They are wondering with the 10.2% that you quoted as unemployment that they seemed to think that that percentage was low. They want to know where you got the number from.
I got that from Eliza. Eliza, do you know where that number came from? I am guessing Eliza doesn't know where that number came from.
ELIZA GREENWOOD: Yeah, I will find it in a moment here.
We will get back to you on that. Yes, but I agree. I do think it was very low. Maybe we can move on to the next question.
Have Facebook and YouTube been notified about the issues that you talked about today, about inaccessibility, and are they working on trying to resolve them?
I haven't had any contact with Facebook. I have had some contact with YouTube just because I know the Google Accessibility people there. But they don't take much stock in accessibility companies telling them that they are inaccessible because it sounds a little bit like, you know, we are trying to (Inaudible). This presentation will be available on the AccessibilityOz conferences page, and I will be writing an article about it and publishing it probably in the next month or two. So certainly, if they want to talk to us, they are more than welcome to, but no, we haven't contacted them.
Are there any questions from our telephone participants?
There are no questions in the queue.
Okay. I will continue with the chat room questions, then. They wanted to know, how do you make the daily digest?
So it depends hon you're putting content out to the social media networks. I think that probably the best thing to do is to have a process that whoever is posting to your social media has a page that they also set on your website that they update as they change it. And then at the end of the day or the end of the week or something like that, someone actually goes through, grabs all that information, and puts it in a daily digest. So what we mean by a daily digest is like an email. If you've got a newsletter, something like that, but it's probably going to have to be manually created. Does that actually answer the question?
I'll have to wait for a reply on that.
Just while we're waiting for a reply, we've got the statistic. It's listed at www.dol.gov/odep. I will get Eliza to put that into the main room so people can access it, but yes, I thought that was a very low percentage.
The other question that came in is do you know if there are CAPTCHA services that are accessible?
GIAN WILD: No, there are no CAPTCHA services that are accessible. There is—I know Google has come out recently with this no CAPTCHA option that when it does fall back to CAPTCHA, which it often does with the screen reader user, it's not accessible. I've written two articles on CAPTCHA. You can access them from the articles page on our website. One is called CAPTCHA: Inaccessible to Everyone, and the other is something like how do you make an accessible CAPTCHA, and it's that you can't. There are alternatives to CAPTCHA that we can recommend. One of them is the human check question, such as things like is fire hot or cold, you provide a checkbox for yes and one for no, and the form only gets submitted if they selected the right check box. You can also have something like is grass green or blue? The sky blue or purple, that kind of thing. You can also have very easy math questions, like please enter what 2 plus 2 equals. You can also do things on the server, so something your technical people could do, where often if a robot is submitting a form over and over again, they'll submit it without any real time difference, so they'll submit one, immediately .2 seconds later they will submit the same form again. .2 seconds later, they will submit the same form again. So one of the things your technical guys can do is they can determine when the person opens the page and when they submit the form, and you know, if it's a five-option form, then you know that's got to be at least ten seconds. So if it's less than ten seconds between when someone opens the page and when someone submits the form, then it won't accept the form.
So yeah, those are the kind of things that we offer those. Another one which we called a honeypot field, which is where you have a hidden field that's not visible to people, and you actually say please leave this field blank. You need to make sure that that's the label so that gets read by screen readers. And what other things that robots do is they fill out every single field. So you then, therefore, on the technical side, if you receive a form with that field filled out, then you don't accept that form.
Are there any questions from our telephone participants?
OPERATOR: There are no questions in the queue.
That is all the questions I see in our Chat room, Gian and Eliza. If you do have any more questions, now would be the time. We have plenty of time left over for any further questions. Anything you need clarified, any contact information you would like, et cetera.
Also, yeah, if you have any questions on accessibility, feel free to ask. Yeah. It doesn't have to be about social media.
As a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, that's * 1 if you have a question.
ELIZA GREENWOOD: This is Eliza. I wanted to just mention that we have a little bit of a Twitter conversation going on here. Thanks so much for our Twitter followers for suggesting the #SOMEA11Y. Nice job on the camel case there. So please do feel free to contact us via twitter or these other contact methods and join in the conversation.
I do actually have some other questions from the chat that came in electronically. I apologize. Bear with me here.
Somebody did want to know about the accessibility of LinkedIn for job seekers and what you thought about the accessibility, again, of that particular website.
Yes, I think that next time I will include LinkedIn. LinkedIn—the thing is, I know someone earlier asked if I had contacted people about their social media accessibility, and I
One of the reasons I haven't is they actually do have accessibility people working for them. And you know, they stay active in the industry. They obviously know a lot about accessibility, and I don't know whether it's a case of they don't get traction within the organization to make the changes that they need, but yeah, I sort of feel like me contacting them and saying hey, your system is not accessible, is you know, it's kind of like they must know that already. And when it comes to LinkedIn, I do know the LinkedIn accessibility major, absolutely brilliant, and I have talked with him about some of the accessibility issues with LinkedIn. And in terms of job seekers, LinkedIn, I haven't done a lot of work on looking at the accessibility of it, but from my mobile accessibility presentation, I do use some examples, and that are color contrast is incredibly problematic. So you know, there's a lot of gray text on a dark gray background and things like that. They, you know, rely on placeholder and things along those lines. But other than that, I haven't done a lot of research on LinkedIn. But when I write this article, I'll make sure that I include LinkedIn as one of the examples so that—yeah, so that it's useful. So look out for that article, and hopefully that will answer your question then.
Do we have any participants on the phone that have questions?
OPERATOR: There are no questions in the queue.
I do have a couple more ask our presenters. Can Videos be captioned on different social media sites?
Really, the only thing that will allow you to caption video is YouTube.
MARCELLE JONES: I am sorry. Can you repeat that?
So no. Unfortunately, the only way to caption a video at the moment—well—is YouTube—in a social media site. You can burn the captions into the video so that, you know, they will show up wherever you show the video.
MARCELLA JONES: Okay. A couple more questions for you here. Are there any default settings in any of the social media apps or programs that would require accessibility, and for example, would require text description when posting a photo per se?
No, there is nothing like that at all.
MARCELLE JONES: Okay. And as technology continues to evolve, as you talked about somewhat today, can persons with disabilities provide input to ensure new technologies and apps and/or programs are accessible to persons with disabilities?
So there's no formal way of doing something like that, but certainly in the U.S. things are getting much, much better. In terms of accessibility in the U.S., government websites and things like that have to follow Section 508, but the Department of Justice is very actively, you know, suing organizations for not meeting Web Content Accessibility Guidelines version 2. So they are not referring to Section 508 anymore.
So I would say probably the best thing to do if you want to—if you are a person with a disability who has a problem with a social media networking site, I would contact those sites directly and say, “This is the problem that I'm having.” But I would also consider looking at organizations that support people with your specific disability and going to them and saying, look, you know, I can't use Facebook and I am vision impaired. So they might have—I am sure they receive many complaints like that. They can contact social media networks on their behalf.
Testing with people with disabilities is incredibly important, and it's something that, you know, I think people should do more often. There's no official system in place for something like that.
Okay. One last question in the Chat room. If businesses and government agencies are using social media to promote programs and activities, should they have internal policies regarding accessibility for staff posting the information?
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely, if you are going to be an organization that's going to post stuff, you need to make sure that—you should be aware now that social media is not accessible, so you need to have a policy and a process in place to say this is the way you do it. This is the alternative that's going to be on our website. These are the daily digests that we're going to send. And it's important to know that you don't need to just worry about people with disabilities out in the community, but also people with disabilities on your own staff. And so, you know, that can affect you. For example, uploading a video to YouTube, you know, if you give that task to someone who is vision impaired, they are not going to be able to do that task. So that's important to remember as well.
Okay. And to follow up with that, can you give some examples of best practices?
Best practices in—oh, in policies? So I don't—I mean, organizations don't necessarily make these things obvious, so it was just basically—it would be the steps we specify in this presentation. We follow those steps. We don't have a Facebook, but we have a Twitter handle and we have a LinkedIn group or LinkedIn company, and you know, I am on LinkedIn, things like that. But yes, no, I can't—I can't give any high-profile examples.
Okay. I am going to go back one last time, are there any questions in the queue for us from the telephone?
There are no questions in the queue.
MARCELLE JONES: And I am not seeing anything else in the Chat room, so is there anything, Gian and Eliza, you would like to say before we close?
Well, thank you very much for having me.
Hold on just a second. Bear with us just a second. We do have some more questions for you.
Can you please unmute Peter Berg?
Sure. One moment. His line is open.
MARCELLE JONES: Thank you.
Thank you. Sorry about that. We had a question submitted prior to the session, and you had touched on this during your presentation about, you know, apps being frequently updated, websites being updated. So just your thoughts on that issue from both the perspective of designers and persons with disabilities who may be using older versions of their assistive technology for a variety of reasons, but you know, finances/resources being one of those. So what are your thoughts, you know, keeping up with technology when you may not have the resources in terms of keeping updated with your assistive technology?
Yeah, that's a really big issue because, I mean, when we test—well, when we tested these, we tested for the latest versions of everything. So you know, if they are not fully accessible with later versions of the screen readers, they are definitely not going to be fully accessible with the older versions of the screen readers. I think it's—it's an ongoing problem with websites. You know, with everything that they—things are expensive and hard to get your hands on.
In terms of screen readers, there's a great free version of a screen reader called NVDA, NonVisual Desktop Access, and it's quite popular. I think it's maybe just after JAWS in terms of popularity, but I would have to check that with the WebAIM screen reader. But that's also something to look at in terms of screen readers is WebAIM, replacing screen reader every year, so you can have a look at them in terms of what's happening. I think perhaps this will be less of an issue in the next year as open if you've got an old iPhone, like an iPhone 4 or something like that, you can still run the latest iOS version and then hopefully the latest version of Safari and VoiceOver and things like that. So maybe with mobiles becoming more and more popular this will be less of an issue. But yeah, it's definitely a problem.
Just as a follow-up from a personal perspective, I am VoiceOver user myself, and have you gotten feedback? I've noticed that the accessibility to some of the apps that I use was impacted by the latest updates to the operating system, especially 9.2.
What feedback or thoughts have you gotten on that?
Yeah. So this is—yeah, you are right, and so it brings its own problems. We see that a lot with OzPlayer, which I can—you know, it's a product, it's a Web video player, and every time there's an operating system update, you know, we have to test all over again because, you know, it does cause problems. So one iOS update and the captions would show up twice. So yeah, it does happen. And also, we found with—we do mobile accessibility testing, and some—we found in the latest version of iOS it just didn't support external cables with websites. The external cables worked just fine with mobile apps, but as soon as you went to the website, wouldn't work at all.
So yeah, it's—I think that it's got to do with the fact that mobile is kind of where Web was in the late '90s, early 2000s, and people aren't looking at those things when they are releasing these updates. And I remember having to test back in '99 with Windows 98, so early 2000, Windows 98, Windows XP, and windows CA and MA, et cetera, et cetera. It's kind of the same now with mobile. We have to test with a whole range of different mobiles. We have to test with a whole range of different operating systems. Then different browsers as well. And then on top of that, different screen readers. So it is a mess at the moment, and I can just hope that it gets better. But yeah, it does happen. It really does happen a lot, unfortunately.
When you were talking about, again, just a follow-up for my own curiosity. When you were talking about VoiceOver, were you talking about accessing Facebook and YouTube through Safari or through the apps for those social media, or were you talking about Beth?
Yeah, so we were talking about the apps. Sorry I didn't say that, but yes, we were talking about the apps.
Okay. And then have you tested using VoiceOver with Safari as well?
GIAN WILD: No, no, we haven't. We've got anecdotal evidence that for screen reader users that the mobile websites are easier to use, but the other problem with mobile websites just generally is that often they are a cut-down version of the desktop system or they are a cut-down version of the mobile app. So you don't actually get access to all the information that you should be able to get access to. And as a screen reader user, it doesn't really matter what the screen looks like because you can't see it. You need to be able to actually access all the content. So if you are accessing—that's the biggest problem with mobile websites. You don't know if you are getting all the information that you would get if you accessed it through a desktop.
PETER BERG: Does Apple know that they have a certain format in which apps must be developed to be used on their devices, does that assist in any way in driving developers to incorporating accessibility?
GIAN WILD: Yeah, absolutely. The Apple requirements mean that out of the box, many of the mobile apps are not fully accessible, but they have, you know, some basic accessibility, especially to VoiceOver. It's not 100%, but I don't think it can be 100% unless you actually engage an accessibility firm to test every single app. But their requirements are much more stringent than any of the other kind of mobile systems out there. And you can see that in the apps. You can see that they are much more accessible than things like Android apps because they are actually requiring those Web accessibility requirements.
PETER BERG: And have you ton any testing in the Android environment?
GIAN WILD: Very, very little. Well, actually, we've done a lot of mobile website testing in the Android environment. Android is very—it's a bit of a mess because, you know, you can—with iOS at least you've got this great version, you've got this great product. With Android, there's, you know, thousands and thousands of products out there, and then there's all these different versions, and whether people have updated them or not you can't tell. So we test with, you know, the latest three versions of Samsung phone, the latest two versions of Samsung tablets. But you know, depending on the client—depending on the client, sometimes we test with the Internet browser, and that will often give off very, very different results. And then you test with talk-back. But yes.
Are you aware of any research or surveys that have been conducted or anecdotally for people with disabilities what is being used in—more widely, Android-based phones or the iPhone?
Yeah, I believe that Apple devices are much more popular with people with disabilities than Android phones. There is a document written by Media Access Australia about social media accessibility. I think it was updated two years ago. It talks a little bit about the different mobiles. It also talks a little about how as a person with a disability you would actually get onto a social network. As I said, it's a couple years old, so it might not be applicable anymore, but that's certainly somewhere to look.
Excellent. And just within last one from me that we got in advance. You talked about accessibility of Twitter being pretty good. Can—when people tweet out photos, can they be tagged through Twitter?
No. No, once again, you'd need to—what I do is I tweet out the text with the image, and at the end of the text, I say ALT follows, and then I immediately Twitter—Twitter—I immediately tweet out alternative as just tweet because there's no way to actually add that, add an ALT to the actual image, unfortunately.
Then how do you handle videos, or do you tweet videos?
Well, I don't think we have tweeted videos, but if we did, we would put with the video—we would probably link to a webpage that, you know, alternative (Inaudible) can be used on this webpage. And we would have that video in our accessible video player. We would have the transcript and make sure that the video is captioned, that it had an audio description version. Yeah, I think that's what we would do. And we will be posting videos at some point. Of course, that's videos that we can control. Other people's videos, I think the only thing, you know, that you can do if you are going to be tweeting out inaccessible videos is actually tell the user that it's not accessible.
Okay. I just wanted to check one last time if there's anybody on the phone that has questions.
There are no questions in the queue.
Thank you, and we do not have any other Chat questions. I would like to remind everybody that we do have our next session on November 17, and it's going to be about new customer service and accessible meetings resources. So please put that on your calendars. Thank you so much again, Gian and Eliza, for joining us today. It was a great presentation, and also taking your time from the time difference. We appreciate that so much. I learned a lot, and we really do appreciate you being available. And again, November 17 is our next session. Everybody have a wonderful day. Thank you very much.
ELIZA GREENWOOD: Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, that does conclude today's conference. You may now disconnect. Presenters, please stand by.