Insights on Traveling with a Mobility Disability

Transcript

ROBIN JONES

Welcome, everyone, to the series that's brought to you as a collaborative effort with the Great Lakes ADA center and the ADA National Network. We offer these programs on a monthly basis. We're excited you decided to join us in the dog days of summer as we wind down the summer months here and close out the month of August.

So school is getting to start. Some are already back in school. Some are getting prepped and ready to go. This is a timely topic as we're at the end of the travel season. But people do travel a lot in the fall, winter, and holidays and things of that nature. I think in that context this, topic is probably timely on a year-round basis for most people. We have people joining us today in a multitude of different ways. Some are connected by computer, some by telephone, some may be using the handouts given in advance. We welcome your questions at any time during the session today. I will be moderating the session on behalf of Kelly. We'll be replaying the questions to her when we're ready for the question-and-answer period.

As we start, the session is also open captioneds, for those of you who need to access is captioning. If you missed the instructions, just look for the CC icon above the audio/video panel, and that will open up the captioning and give you the captioning access today.

I'm going to go ahead and start and introduce, briefly, our presenter today. As you heard, our topic is Insights on Traveling with a mobility Disability. Kelly Narowski is experienced as disability rights advocate in both the military and civilian world. She's given hundreds of presentations for the Department of Defense. She has 9 years experience in the corporate travel industry. She's experienced in both domestic and international travel. As a wheelchair user herself, she's visited 46 countries on five different continents.

Her former positions includes working as liaison for the 82nd Airborne Division’s Wounded Warriors Committee, Army Family Readiness Group Advisor, Board member for the Whole Person Center for Independent Living, VIP Speaker for the Think First Foundation, Advocate for the Fayetteville Council for Persons with Disabilities, and various other memberships in organizations that advocate to improve the lives of persons with disabilities. is certified as an Army Master Resilience Trainer and has completed the ADA Coordinator Certification programthat's offered by the ADA National Network. She holds a BS from western State University and a master's from New York school of Professional Studies. She currently lives at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where her husband is assigned by the U.S. Army. I'm going to turn over the session to her.

Kelly, you can go ahead at any time.

KELLY NAROWSKI

Thank you, Robin, for that wonderful introduction.

Hi. This is Kelly. I do want to add to the intro that I am a manual wheelchair user. I use a chair that is about 18 pounds, and that makes a big difference when you are travelling. And I'll do my best to talk about accessibility when it comes to all wheelchair users but my experience comes from being a manual chair user as opposed to using a scooter or a powered chair. I also want to mention that I moved back to the United States 1 year ago. Prior to that, I lived in Germany for 3 years.

So a few of the examples that I will give may pertain to Europe because I traveled constantly while we were stationed in Europe with the Army. I did 35 countries in those 3 years. So you will hear me talking a little bit about Europe. Mainly, that's because it's so different than traveling the United States. I've been to 40 states in the U.S., most of those as a wheelchair user. Traveling is just so different. Mostly, that's due to our rights in the U.S., all the wonderful disability rights laws that we have. They're strict and they have teeth.

In other parts of the world, they don't. A lot of times, there will be a vague manifesto in a nation saying that people with disabilities have equal rights, but there's no way to enforce that or there's no regs and so on.

Since I have visited 46 countries, and I do help people out a lot just on my own as a volunteer, with accessible travel, I would like to give my email address for anybody who needs help with a destination. Say you're going to Barcelona or Sydney, I would like to help you out. There's no charge, of course. My email is Kelly@kellynarowski.com.

What I'm going to talk about today is sort of a mix of legislation and how it applies to accessible travel. I'm also going to go practical tips and lessons learned, lessons I have learned sometimes the hard way on the best way to book and plan travel. There are things you need to remember to reduce the fiasco.

On slide 11, hopefully that one is up. I want to mention that's my friend, Corey Lee, the famous travel blogger. He gave me permission to use these pictures. On the left picture, he's in Ecuador, taking an accessible tour of the rain forest. The second one is in Iceland on an accessible bus.

We can move on to the next slide, slide 12. I'm going to talk about air travel. The first thing I definitely want to mention is there's sort of a misconception out there that airs have to -- that airlines have to follow the ADA. I see it all the time on Facebook groups. If something goes wrong, they say they didn't follow the Americans with Disabilities Act. Well, they're exempt from the ADA, but they have to follow the Act of 1986.

You know, my biggest piece of advice, if you're a wheelchair user or you have a mobility impairment, crutches, a cane, walker, need oxygen, have some other sort of disability like a sensory impairment or anything else, know the Act. If you print the puppy out, it's over 40 pages long. There's a lot to it, a lot of regs, but that translates to a lot of rights.

I actually usually have a copy with me when I'm traveling. I don't always. It depends on the route. It's important to know the big things in it. That will reduce problems for you when you travel. In some ways, it's stricter than the ADA. For example, like title III of the ADA, it covers public accommodations, stores, restaurants, theaters, so on. Emotional support animals are not covered. So they're not legally allowed in those places. An owner or manager could let them in, but they're not mandated to let them in. However w the air carrier access Act, they have to accept emotional support animals and service animals. With a letter from a medical professional, the air carriers do have to accept emotional support animals. So that's one example of how it's a more stringent one.

Another important thing to know is there's always climate resolution officer working at each and every flight has one. They're called a CRO. They may be working more than one flight, but if you ask, they have to be available. If you're having a problem, you can ask for them, and they have authority to override any staff, any airline staff, except for the pilot.

Just to give you an example of when I needed to use a CRO is in Kansas City, it was actually last year, I knew that if an aircraft had over 100 seats, that I have the legal right per the air carrier access rights Act to have my chair stored in the closet on the airplane. It doesn't have to go underneath with the luggage. I looked at the seat map before taking this flight, and I knew that I could ask to have the chair on the flight. The gate agent said, No, I don't think so. Giving me the run around. And I asked for the CRO. And the CRO overrode it. He said, She's right- that she can have her manual chair in the closet. Now, if there had been crutches in the closet or another manual chair, I would have been out of luck, and my chair would have been tagged and gone to the belly of the plane.

I used the CRO in Germany because the air carrier Access Act applies to any flight landing or beginning in the United States. Even though my slight was starting in Germany, it was landing in the U.S. so I knew I also had the right to have my chair in the cabin. I asked for the CRO because the person I was checking on it wasn't sure about the rule. The CRO approve it. That was the end of that. It's good to know that you have the right to ask for one if there's some sort of conflict.

The air carrier access Act, I'm not going to go over everything, just a few things that I find important. They may not limit the number of persons with disabilities on a flight, unlike in Europe. The EU does allow for airlines to limit the number of individuals with disabilities on a flight. The airlines may not require advance notice to travel unless you need in-flight oxygen or you have both a vision and hearing impairment. Not one or the other, but you have both.

And it says the airline is not required to transport an electric or powered chair on an aircraft with less than 60 seats. That doesn't mean they won't do it. It means they don't have to do it.

In the United States, the airline is responsible for making sure that your chair is delivered to the aircraft door. That's something else that isn't a right in other countries. So if I'm in the U.S., what I do is if they're not bringing the chair to the aircraft door, I just sit there until they do. If it ends up at baggage claim, I refuse to move until they get it, and that always works. And the pilot will always take your side. You have the right to have it brought to you. So it should never be down at baggage claim. Even outside the U.S., the few times it's happened, I refused to get out of the seat until they bring my chair to the door. Once you get up, if you agree to get in an airport chair and you go up the jetway, no one is going to look at it as urgent to find your chair. That's kind of how I do things, but I'm a little feisty.

Let's see what else when it comes to rights. Current challenges, okay, so last year, the president signed a bill that says the airlines have to keep track of how many chairs they damage. So between January of this year and June of this year, they have damaged almost 4,800 chairs. So that averages out to about 26 a day. American Airlines has the worst record this year of over 4% of the chairs they handle they damage. Delta has the best record with less than 1% at this point.

Another current challenge is there is abuse with people bringing dogs and saying that they are emotional support animal or a service animal when they're not. The airline can't ask for documentation, other than rabies documentation. They can't ask for documentation saying the animal is a service animal. People abuse that. Now, they can when you claim it's an emotional support animal. But people are abusing that. I think they usually abuse it because it's free to bring your animal, your pet, your dog, into the cabin. It's free. So people are doing that. The airlines are struggling with it. They're trying to make changes, and then the Department of Transportation is saying, no, you can't do this.

Delta had one recently. Someone tried to bring a pit bull. They said, no, you can't do that. The problem is they're biting other passengers, and that's why this is a hot topic and they're looking for solutions.

So personal experiences, my biggest problem, I would say my biggest challenge as a manual wheelchair user that's traveled solo a lot, is pre-boarding. For those of you with a mobility impairment, you know what I'm talking about or have a family member or friend that you travel with that has a mobile impairment, you know what I'm talking about. There's a lot of anxiety. If they don't get to pre-board, there's anxiety. It's difficult if the aisle chair people, the wheelchair assistance folks, if they don't show up in time, you get on last in front of everybody. It's a big spectacle. Or they will stop boarding and there's a lot of people on the jetway watching you transfer from your wheelchair to the aisle chair. It's just awful.

I noticed when I lived in Europe, this happened about 20% of the time. One time, I was just so tired from traveling from the States over to Paris, that I just started crying. They didn't really get it, what the problem was. All the staring, the people, the culture is different. Nobody could understand why I was so upset.

But in the States, I've flown hundreds of times, and it's happened less than 1% of the time that I did not get to pre-board. And the lesson here is, when you travel, as soon as that gate agent, as soon as you see them, as soon as they show up to start working with customers, go up to them and talk to them and ask them if you can pre-board? Just make sure they see you and know. That really helps.

Another tip that I have as far as air travel, you are almost always the first person on the plane, and you're the last one off the plane. So you want to book big layovers. I never book less than an hour and a half. I've done like an hour and 10 minutes. It kind of depends on the airport. But the big hubs like Atlanta, I do at least an hour and a half, 2 hours. You want to do the big layovers.

After you book your flight, I think it's important in most cases to call the air carrier and ask for the seat you want. A lot of wheelchair users want the bulkhead. That's the first row. There's more space. I personally don't like the bulkhead because during take-off and landing, you have to have your stuff put up above you in the overhead compartment, and the flight attendant has to do that if you don't stand up. I don't like not having my stuff and having to bother them and saying, Please get my stuff down. And the armrests don't go down, so someone would have is to lift me. I prefer a window so people don't have to climb over me to use the restroom. That's personal preference. The point is to call the carrier and ask for the seat you want and tell them your situation. They do reserve bulkheads for people with disabilities and people with mobility impairments and traveling with twin infants, etc. It’s extremely rare that I don’t get the seat I want because they are usually great with people who have mobility impairments.

Okay. I think it is time to move on to the next slide, slide 13. And that is car rentals. I mentioned title III earlier. It applies to car rental agencies. They're required to install hand controls. They're not required to have vans with ramps or lifts. I wish they were. They are required to offer all price points.

So there have been -- almost every car rental agency has been through, since the ADA was passed a lot of the guidelines and rules have been set by the Department of Justice because there's nothing in the 2010 standards or previously about car rentals. There's no regulations. So all the rules have been set forth by precedent of the settlement. They never end up in court. The Department of Justice says car rental companies cannot discriminate against an individual on the basis of disability. So car rental agencies cannot discriminate.

There have been several cases. I'm not going to go through all the case law, although it's very fascinating to me. I will mention, though, just a little bit.

There was a DOJ settlement with Enterprise a few years ago. There were three plaintiffs. A lot of policy changes came from that particular settlement. One of them was the amount of time that you have to give -- the notice you have to give to get your hand controls installed. So at the 25 busiest airports in the United States, it's only 8 hours. If you were going into Chicago O'Hare, JFK, New York, you only need to give 8 hours for your hand controls to be installed.

The next 35 major airports are the medium sized airports are 24 hours. For all the others its 48 hours. 72 hours for rural locations.

There was an Avis Department of Justice settlement, also, about the airport shuttle buses. Somebody was suing. It ended up being that the accessible shuttle buses are available for Avis. If a car rental agency doesn't have an accessible shuttle bus, they have to come get you. They have to find a way to make things accessible, to come pick you up from the airport area and get you to the car rental agency in an accessible way.

So the picture of me, that's a picture of me. That's in New Zealand. I thought that was an interesting thing. They didn't install a hand control in New Zealand. That was in Christchurch. That was Avis, I believe. That was actually very difficult because the steering wheel. I won't say it's on the wrong side of the car because they would make me sound like an arrogant American. It's on the other side. I'm used to driving with left-side hand controls, and you have to drive on the other side of the road. So there were three challenges there. That's very difficult for me. I drove 17 miles and told my husband, can you please drive? It was really hard.

It's interesting that more of the countries are doing hand controls. I'm going to Iceland next month. They do hand controls. There's several countries that do.

Out of the hundreds of cars that I have rented, I have only had three bad experiences. I will just mention those. In Raleigh, I showed up, and Enterprise had put hand controls in an Escalade. I am -- for those of you that know what a spinal cord injury is and understand spinal cord injuries, I'm a T-6. I can't get into an Escalade. I was traveling solo. They got it fixed, got it worked out very quickly. Took me to a hotel, didn't charge me, and showed up the next day with a car/van that I could get in and out of.

Montgomery, Alabama, they put the hand controls in wrong. They fixed it. They fixed it because they have to. They fixed it because of Title 3 and the Americans with Disabilities Act. I appreciate having these rights because in other countries they don’t have this. Fiascos happen every once in a while, but they get remedied.

Columbia, South Carolina, I showed up to get in my vehicle, and there's no hand controls in there at all. I knew that I had them guaranteed. So I took a taxi to my hotel. It was paid for by Budget. The franchise is one that made the mistake. They paid for it. A car was delivered the next day. They had to have a mechanic come in from Charleston, drive in to install the hand controls.

Huntsville, Alabama, I called and booked hand control s at a car rental agency, and they just said, we don't do that. We don't install hand controls, at this particular location. I knew they couldn't say that, couldn't do that. So I filed a Department of Justice complaint, and the DOJ mediated. They sponsored a mediator, and that got dealt with.

Just to give you one more example of car rentals, and this wasn't a fiasco. This was in Fair Banks, Alaska, to do a speech. They had never installed hand controls, but they knew because of the ADA, that they had to. Someone in Anchorage installed it and drove it to Fairbanks. One tip with this, call the location, not the corporate 1-800 number you call, to actually ask for hand controls. It's hard to get through, but I like to call them a day or two before and just make sure that all is good, that they got the message what kind of hand controls you need, if you need a spinner top on the steering wheel or anything like that. I personally always request two doors. They don't have to give you a two-door. They're hard to get these days. They're easier for paraplegics.

I have so much, so I'm just going to move on. We could be here all day.

Moving on to slide 14. Slide 14 is a picture of me. I am getting ready to get into what is called a black taxi in London. All black taxis in London are required to be accessible. They're accessible to power wheelchair users or if you have a manual they're expensive, these black taxis.

Amtrak, I have never ridden on Amtrak, but I have a lot of friends that have. I've talked to them in depth about it. One thing one of them told me was that they were freezing. They had amazing service, but they were cold. So their tip would be to take extra blankets and layer. They were just cold on the train the whole time.

One thing that I found out recently, you're supposed to be able to book an accessible seat on Amtrak, but you haven't been able to until just a couple of months ago. Now you can book an accessible seat directly on Amtrak's website without having to call in. That's good.

But with regard to Amtrak, it's sort of a strange animal. There's an overlap between the Department of Transportation regs and Title III of the ADA and Section 504, which applies to entities that receive federal dollars. Well, Amtrak receives a billion-dollar government subsidy. So the laws overlap, and it gets into a gray area.

So I did, about a year and a half ago, an interview with the vice president of Amtrak because I was preparing to do an educational session on accessible travel. We went over accessibility and the policies. Basically, he told me that true accessibility started in Amtrak in 2003. There was nothing before 2010. He let me know that 24 out of the 527 stations, only 24 are inaccessible, and that's due to the problems with the historical nature. It's almost impossible. They would have to tear out the building. That's about 5%. So that's not too bad. They're doing everything they can. The service is amazing, from everything I've heard. They bring your food to your cabin because you can't get to the food cart.

So Amtrak is, I think, an accessible mode of travel. I want to try that someday.

Shuttles and buses, I won't get into it too much, but I will just mention that Greyhound is accessible now. There are 26 violations against them. A few years ago, a big DOJ settlement. They were denying service animals and failing to maintain wheelchair lifts. That's all changed. Now the results have been very good. Booking online is hassle-free. Now there's only one space for wheelchair users. Only one wheelchair user per bus. The bathrooms are not accessible but the stops are every 2-4 hours. They're contributing a greater commitment to ADA. A few years ago, I did not know they were accessible, but they are. That's another option.

ADA also says that all bus loading zones and shelters must be accessible. That's public and private entities according to ADA standards. That includes touring agencies, charter buses, the shelters and loading zones for taxis, limos, everything. I'm not going to get into the signage too much, but it has to be accessible to people with low vision. I wish I could talk more about sensory disabilities because there's a lot there too. We just don't have the time today.

Taxis, that varies greatly by city. The major cities have, you know, accessible taxis, some of them do. The New York accessible dispatch program has a 24/7 taxi service, accessible taxis, and it's the same fare. You can book online through an app or phone. There's taxi stands where you can get your accessible taxi. It's in all five New York City borough s. That's rare. They're in every major U.S. city.

Taxis, we need to improve on. While I'm talking about New York, I will mention that recently $600 million has been mandated towards subways in New York. So 300 million of that for station improvements. 18 years ago, I was in New York City. I went down and was going to take the subway. I went down to the station. I couldn't find an elevator. They said, you need to go downstairs to find the elevator, so that was not accessible. I took the bus, which was completely accessible.

Next topic is Uber and Lyft. A lot of lawsuits going on here. They are not subject to the ADA right now. Lyft is fighting it pretty hard. They're trying to get out of it, saying they're not a transportation company. Both of them are saying that. They're saying they're a technology company. I'm like, Okay. Cars drive people around. You're a transportation company.I put out a survey and I got feedback from 12 wheel chair users about Uber/ Lift. Positive feedback came from people in Washington, D.C., San Francisco, Chicago, Houston, New York City. Outside the states I heard form people in Washington, D.C., San Francisco, Chicago, Houston, New York City. Also in London and Brussels. Also, I need to mention that these are manual wheelchairs. We're talking about people that can transfer into a regular car. And the power wheelchair users I've talked to say they cannot find wheelchair accessible vehicles. They're in New York. They're in San Francisco now. That is, you know, something that everybody is fighting. We hope to see wheelchair accessible vehicles added to the Uber and Lyft fleet.

We can move on to hotels. Title III also applies to hotels and motels. The hotels that got compliant with standards were not required to upgrade to the 2010 standards. They're similar, but there are a few improvements. There are a lot of regulations. There's no way I can get into all of those today. There's probably classes just on hotel regs.

Again, best access in hotels in the United States. I was looking at a hotel in Amsterdam. Out of curiosity, I looked at how many of the hotels -- there were a gazillion. There were only 17% that were accessible. In the U.S., all hotels have to have accessible rooms. Do they all have accessible rooms? Probably not. People break the law sometimes. It's well over 95%, I can say with confidence.

Online booking tools, you're supposed to have accessible rooms in the inventory when you book online. I think that most hotel chains do well with that. It is hit or miss. The big chains do well with that. I noticed that IHG does they have Internet Continental, Holiday Inn, Holiday Inn Express, Hyatt does well, Hilton, Marriot. You can't get it internationally. I'm always have to email back and forth about accessible rooms, about accessible features. It's a lot more difficult. So I loved it. We can get accessible hotels online in the U.S. and get it guaranteed. It is important to note that with hotel policy, let's say you need a regular room, non-accessible room, and you're guaranteed, and you show up at midnight, and the hotel oversold. So there are not enough rooms. And they say you have to stay somewhere else. Well, they have to walk you. If they send you somewhere else, they have to pay for it. The same thing goes for individuals with disabilities that need accessible rooms. Let's say I show up at whatever time, 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, midnight. It doesn't matter. I have a guaranteed accessible room. Let's say the front desk clerk gave my room away to somebody else. They not only have to find my accessible room somewhere else; they have to pay for it.

I have been in that situation just a couple of times. I will get into my personal experiences in just a moment and move on to current challenges for a second. I would say one of the biggest challenges with accessible hotel rooms are bed heights. It's something you hear so often. Bed heights are a problem. There are people really advocating for a better bed-height range. . An accessible bed height range. You see beds that are so, so high in hotels. The thing is everybody has different accessibility needs. I know people that like the high bed so they can get the Hoyer underneath the bed so they can be lifted with the Hoyer. Then people like me prefer a much lower bed, but these 26, 27-inch beds are extremely dangerous. I mean, I fell in Tampa from trying to get up on the bed. It was super high. Also in California. It's so hard to get up. Not everybody can get up. It's unfortunate that we have these super accessible bathrooms and all these rugs for ADA rooms, but the bed heights are, you know, a big problem.

The thing is: In Washington right now, in its current environment we're not going to see bed heights reg added. It's not going to change anytime soon, but that is a current challenge.

Another challenge, I was speaking with an ADA attorney, and I noticed from experience, a lot of times in the accessible rooms, the hotels will put the shower benches too far away from the controls, the shower controls. This becomes kind of useless. I'm talking about the roll-in showers. That's something an ADA attorney I know sees all the time. I don't know why they can't get that right. When you do see that, it's important to let the manager know right away. Not only can you not take a shower, but it's not ADA compliant.

So what I do is I travel with a trash bag. That way, if I absolutely have to, I can put the trash bag over the back of my chair, and I take the cushion cover off. It depends on what kind of cushion you have on your chair. I roll in with that. People shouldn't have to do things like that.

One thing I will mention, you cannot charge more. You cannot charge more for an accessible room in the United States, but there's nothing internationally saying that they can't do that. I've run into it a lot of times, where people try to charge more for accessible rooms because the rooms are bigger. I've ran into both companies that are not American. Interestingly, I've seen it with American companies, surprisingly.

I booked with Intercontinental Hotel which is owned by the same company that is owns Holiday Inn. It's an American company. I booked an Intercontinental in Romania, assuming everything would be good with my accessible room. I got there, and there were all kinds’ accessibility of violations. The spa, bar and many more things was not accessible. I could not believe it. There's no guarantee that when you travel internationally, book an American chain, that you're going to be good to go.

On a positive note, the Intercontinental in China Hong Kong, it was one of the most accessible places that I have stayed at. It varies so do research where you will be staying. I have said before that I expect American standards and non-discrimination. I talked them down, but I'm always in advocate mode. Another example, I went to book at the Hilton in cologne, Germany, they only had one accessible room. In the U.S., with 300 rooms, there would have to be seven rooms with a roll-in tub, for example.

It was a Hilton. They wouldn't guarantee it. They treated it as an amenity. They said, We can't guarantee a room. We put in a request. I said that was ridiculous, so I went somewhere else. I just wanted to give you an example of personal experiences.

In the U.S., the ADA says you're supposed to have accessible rooms including suites. That's rare. You will see some with different room types, but they won't have them all. They're supposed to have them all.

My biggest tip on hotels is to call the hotel the same day that you're checking in. Like, in the morning, while they're preblocking their rooms, hotels assign their guests specific room numbers in the morning and early afternoon. That's what they do. So I always call when I get a chance -- maybe on a layover on a flight -- and say, Hey, I'm booked for an accessible room. I want to make sure you've got that. I think that really helps. There have only been a couple of times, you know, out of hundreds and hundreds of times, that that's gone wrong. But it happened in Charleston. Someone gave my room I a way. I talked about how they have to walk you and pay for it. They found an accessible room nearby. They sent me there and paid for it. Now, it happened in Poland, and I have no rights there. So they gave my accessible room I a way -- room away, and there was nothing I could do about it. I did get free parking because that was the advocate in me. They ended up fixing it the next night, but that's not important. It's important to confirm, confirm, confirm.

It's catastrophic if somebody that's using a chair, especially if they're traveling solo, goes to check into a room and they don't have an accessible room they don’t have a grab bar near the toilet. A lot of times, it means not getting on the toilet. It's so important, you know, to confirm.

Carnival was a biggie. They own Princess and Holland America. A lot of things came out of that suit. Norwegian cruise line was also sued way back in 2005. It was a big Supreme Court case. The reason this was so important is because the Supreme Court said, in a 6-3 decision, the ADA applies to foreign ships in American waters.

So if a cruise ship ports in the States, they have to follow the ADA. That means have accessible cabins and accessibility on the ship. So that's very important. You now have what is called ambulatory accessible cabins too. That's relatively new, within the past few years. That's for people who may not need accessible path of travel in the cabin with a turn radius, but they may use a cane or a walker or crutches. They may need grab features. There are a lot of those.

This was a result of one of the suits. I think it was the Carnival suit. Each ship, the ADA says, must have an ADA officer. If you have a problem, something is not accessible or you need something that's not right in the bathroom, you ask for the ADA officer. Go to the reception area and do that. I will say that I had an experience on a Mediterranean cruise. Two of them were outside the U.S. two were Baltic and the others were Caribbean. They left from the U.S.

I always feel like if it's an American cruise line that ports out of the Caribbean half the year, that everything is going to be good because, you know, if they're porting in the Mediterranean the other half, the ship is going to be accessible.

Well, interestingly, I noticed the center of the ship, where it's a meeting place, where a big reception is, there's a huge coffee shop, and it's kind of where everybody goes. It was up a flight of six or eight steps. There was no way to get up there, none. I asked, How in the world are you getting away with this when you port in Miami. They said, Oh, we put tables below, and people come and wait on you. When we're up here, we move the tables. So they had no accessibility in that area of the ship because they didn't have to, by law. That's what I mean by the ADA having teeth. Obviously, they knew that they could not have accessibility when they're in Italy and Croatia. Now, on another note, my cabin was super accessible.

Celebrity Edge is a new ship and the newer the ship the better in general, super accessible. A lot of ships have been refurbished. If you are trying to debate between a ship, as long as you like the itinerary, I would go with the newer ship. I haven't been on the Celebrity Edge. I've talked to a lot of people who have. I know the person who went through and consulted for accessibility on it. They have 25 accessible cabins. It's super accessible. It has itineraries in both the Caribbean and the Mediterranean.

I went on a Baltic cruise on Holland America. We were entering Copenhagen. The passengers were all offered a shuttle to the airport at a fixed price. I figured, Okay. I'm in Denmark. They don't have to give me the accessible shuttle or transportation, like a car, that's what I can do, they don't have to do that at the same price like in the United States. Well, they did. I was chatting with them about it. They said, Oh, no. We do the most stringent standards. They follow the ADA over there. It's interesting experiences. My personal experiences have been mixed.

One big issue I think people have that have mobility impairments that take cruises, cruises are wonderful. You don't have to deal with parking and all that and carrying luggage. It's just a lot easier, a lot of people think so. But excursions, excursions outside the U.S. can be a problem. Finding accessible excursions and Cruise lines are improving on this, but it feels like it's moving at a glacial pace. They have problem working with people in other countries, getting things more accessible. But there are more and more.

I actually always book my own. They're cheaper than booking them through the cruise line anyway. That way I can do my own research and know that it's accessible. But, yeah, cruises, it's an accessible way to go. It's a mode of travel I recommend. I gave my email address earlier, in case you have any questions. I'm not going over everything I know about cruises, but I know people that know a lot more than me, too, that can help you out.

We can move to the next slide, 17. Okay. So the Internet is your best friend when it comes to accessible travel advice. I cannot stress that enough. I booked so many trips for myself. I don't use travel agents. I booked -- well, I was a travel agent for 9 years, but I was a corporate travel agent. I wasn't an accessible travel agent. I just book everything myself. I'm a control freak, and I just like to, you know, take control and do the research and save the money. Sometimes you save money by doing it yourself.

But I Google like crazy to find things, to find accessibility information. There are tons of accessibility tours out there internationally. It may come as a surprise to you, but they have them everywhere. From Vietnam, Cambodia, Slovenia, there's African safaris that are accessible in several parts of Africa, Spain, Italy, Switzerland Costa Rica, Ecuador, Peru and many more. There's so many things out there. It's wonderful to see. There's not so many in the United States because we have so much accessibility here. Googling, just doing Google searches, whatever you're looking for, and that’s how I find things.

I highly recommend, if you're interested in learning about accessible travel destinations, details there's so much to it, you may consider joining Facebook groups. A couple of my favorites, Accessible Travel. There's thousands of people in there. People are on there every day asking for advice or sharing hotels. They're staying in South Africa. They're talking about how great it is or not. There's travel U.S./Canada, which is also helpful. There's one called Access the Globe. I suggest also reading travel blogs. I've spent a lot of time reading travel blogs before I travel, especially when you're going someplace like Rome or Greece. Find out which sites are accessible and which ones are not.

Did you say all ships must have an ADA officer globally or only for ships that port in the U.S.?

KELLY NAROWSKI

That's only ships that port in the U.S.

ROBIN JONES

You mean by port that they picks up -- they land and pick up passengers on U.S. soil.

KELLY NAROWSKI

Transatlantic could stop in a couple of places. If it stops in the U.S. at all, stops, starts, ends, they have to have an ADA officer, absolutely. But we can't control what goes on on the Baltic cruises. The cruise I went on did have an officer, but she didn't know what the ADA was. I don't think that was her main job.

ROBIN JONES

Typically, I think there's other duties assigned.

KELLY NAROWSKI

That's a wonderful question and I don’t have an answer. I think it's wrong, personally. I would love to see some kind of rule where each agency has to have one wheelchair accessible van per fleet, at least at the airport. They're saying, basically, if they have to put hand controls in a sedan, we're being accessible for manual wheelchair users. They're not being accessible for power wheelchair users.

ROBIN JONES

It's an issue within the ADA regulations themselves. It's not a requirement. It would be something we would have to advocate for an actual change in the regulations under the ADA.

KELLY NAROWSKI

Or a lot of these rules come about due to a DOJ settlement.

ROBIN JONES

It would be an interpretation issue, for sure.

ROBIN JONES

Okay. I'm going to keep going with the other questions, then.

Do you give specific instructions when someone is taking your wheelchair for storage on the airplane? Do you give specific instructions or do you wait until they're there? Do you leave it on the jet bridge? How do you deal with it? Do you have recommendations if somebody has something specific about their wheelchair they may need to articulate?

KELLY NAROWSKI

I'm so glad you asked that, whoever asked that. I forgot to mention that it's really important to pull off all the attachments that can fall off, like a cushion, like side guards. Singapore airport lost one of my side guards one time.They're $180. I was outside the country. Didn't have any legal rights to get my money. Pull off all the attachments. For power wheelchair users, it's important to put a sign on your chair about how to handle it, if there's anything special they need to do, like with the joystick, something like that.

But I, personally, if it's going in the cabin, while I'm on the aisle chair, I pop the wheels off and fold it down. I can do that. If you don't have the upper-body strength, you can tell the people how to do it and put it in the closet. While I'm letting them put it underneath with the luggage, I pull the side guards off the cushion. I fold it down. I say to the flight attendants or the wheelchair assistance people, or both, I say, Can you please make sure this wheelchair gets on this airplane? It makes me feel better. I've never had my chair lost or left, knock on wood, but I know people who have had that happen.

ROBIN JONES

Somebody said they had a coworker that had laminate cards to attach how to fold the back, the foot rest, et cetera. They're sharing that tip of their own experience. They've kind of created their own laminated cards.

KELLY NAROWSKI

That's great idea.

ROBIN JONES

Yep.

KELLY NAROWSKI

Okay. Can I think about that for, like, 10 seconds?

ROBIN JONES

Sure. Yeah.

KELLY NAROWSKI

Okay. So I'm going to go with cities right now. Cities tend to be more accessible than rural areas anyway. I will mention that, in general, the West is more accessible than the East. That's because the East is a lot older. You will have towns like Charleston, St. Augustine, Gettysburg, Savanna they're old towns.

Washington, D.C., Las Vegas, Orlando, Denver, and San Francisco, just off the top of my head.

ROBIN JONES

Good. From my own experience, there's definitely differences in communities you go to. I think some of the newer constructive communities, a building boom, there's a lot of new hotels and things of that nature, where there's a strong advocacy community -- when you travel, do you reach out and contact local advocacy organizations or state local government enforcement agencies at all?

KELLY NAROWSKI

Actually, I don't. What I have done is I have filed private Title III lawsuits. I have filed dozens of them. I have no problem saying that. I never, ever receive a time, nor do I want to, even in the States where I can. I never ask for damages. My lawyer is paid. There's injunction relief, barrier removal.

Secondly, I have done Department of Justice complaints just to get things fixed. I feel like it's my duty. I feel like it's the right thing to do. When I see a barrier, I'm doing it for people in the future, not myself because the chances of me going back there are slim. I move every 2 years. My husband is in the Army. So I don't reach out to local disability advocacy organizations because I am a strong advocate, and I do know the disability rights laws as well. My specialization was disability law policy in graduate school. I'm a little feisty, though. Not everybody believes in lawsuits, but I happy to be one of those people that do.

ROBIN JONES

Good advice.

So how do you prepare for air travel, for example, toileting, making adjustments in your fluid intake? Do you change things based on the length of your flight?

KELLY NAROWSKI

No questions.

ROBIN JONES

Thank you, Cindy.

I think we've gotten a lot of insights and information from your personal background and experience. You have given your email address. Again, everyone, just to repeat that so people may have missed it, depending on where you're coming from. The email address is Kelly@kellynarowski.com

ROBIN JONES

Thank you, everybody. You will be getting an email with a survey. We ask you to give feedback. It is also for future sessions. Join us for the next session, which is December 17th. We'll address fair housing act. Registration is currently available at www.ADA-audio.org.

Thank you, Kelly, and thank you, everyone, for joining us today.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the conference.