Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Everyone Into the Pool: Refresher on the Requirements for Swimming Pool Lift. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later we will have a questions and answers session on the phone lines with instructions following at that time. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to Peter Berg. Mr. Berg, you may begin your conference.
All right. Thank you very much, Tammy, and welcome to everyone, wherever you may be located today in this fine February the 19th of 2013. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) Audio conference is a project of the ADA National Network. The ADA National Network is comprised of ten regional ADA Centers. The network is funded by the U.S. Department of Education National Institute on Disability Rehabilitation and Research. The ADA National Network is your source for accurate and timely information regarding the requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Today we have participants joining us via phone and also through our webinar platform. For those of you in the webinar platform, you can control the audio by using the audio panel. The Slider button can be used to control the sound volume, either sliding that left or right. If you are having any sound quality difficulties, you can run the audio setup wizard to make sure that your speakers are properly configured and so that you''re able to hear the important information that is going to be delivered today. For those of you that require the use of captioning to access today''s session, you can double-click on the captioning icon, and the captioning can be -- that can be sized to meet your specific needs. For those - for submitting questions, when we get to that point in time, for those of you that are joining us via telephone, when we get to the question-and-answer time, Tammy will come back and give instructions on how you can ask questions. For those of you in the webinar room, you simply need to double-click on Great Lakes in the participant list, and a box will open and you will be able to submit your question. Your question will not be viewable to other participants, but the question will be seen by the moderators and today''s speaker. For those of you that are using keyboard navigation in the webinar platform, you can use the F6 key and keep cycling around until you get to the participant list. Once in the participant list, use the up and down arrows to find Great Lakes and right-click on Great Lakes, and you will be able to submit your question that way. For - you can customize your view of the webinar platform. The whiteboard where the presentation is being displayed, you can adjust the size of that. You can see that to the top and left of the whiteboard that will allow you to adjust that to the specific size that you want. The three panels can also be adjusted. The participant list, the chat area, and that can be adjusted by clicking on the icon inside of the panel, so you can move those, you can make them larger, you can - you can detach them. All right. If you encounter any difficulties during today''s sessions, again, if you are in the webinar platform, you can submit your questions or submit your inquiry through the chat area, again, selecting Great Lakes as the participant that you are going to send your message to, or you can send an email to us at ADAconferences@ADAGreatLakes.org, or you can phone us at 877-232-1990. All right, now that we''ve gotten through with all of the housekeeping, get to the important stuff, and glad to be able to introduce to you Troy Balthazor, who is an ADA specialist with the Great Plains ADA Center, which is located at the University of Missouri. Pools have been a hot topic going back over 18 months, and Troy''s going to update us and provide a presentation and allow for participants to pick his brain and ask his questions. So that is enough from me. Troy, I will turn it over to you at this time. Welcome, Troy.
Thank you, Peter. Good to be with you all today. It certainly has been a hot topic lately, with not only the changes in the standards and regulations, but having them put off a little while. So anyway, we will try to summarize a little bit about not only what the date is. Obviously, we are past the date of January 31, 2013, that the regulations go into effect. We are going to talk today, do a review of what the standards are, so identify what needs to be accessible under new construction standards and also talk about how to do that. So we will cover the pool and spa scoping standards. We will talk about Title II and basically about program accessibility in Title III, readily achievable barrier removal. What we will try to do here is answer the big questions that we are getting such as do I need a lift? How many lifts do I need? How many Entrances do I need? There are distinct differences in what will come -- the answer to those questions based on if you are talking about a Title II entity with the requirement of program accessibility versus Title III entity, which has a requirement for readily achievable barrier removal. Again, up front, we are looking at the same standards. So we are talking new construction standard. I think the real questions come in as to when existing facilities, existing programs, are in need of adding means of access to pools. We will go over the scoping and the building requirements briefly. Then we''ll talk about Title II and how pool lifts and all these issues relate to operations of state and local governments. At that point, we''ll have a question period before we get into Title III and how public accommodations, businesses, commercial properties are covered. We have entities covered by Title II and III of the Americans with Disabilities Act. As you know, that covers most businesses, most operations of state and local government. The only types of facilities that are not going to be complying are places in general that do not, you know, the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines (ADAAG) does not tend to apply to, which is private clubs, churches, and a good chunk of the residential properties that we see including those common areas. Now, while the ADA would apply to any pools we consider open to the public, if pools in apartment complexes that are privately funded are only open to guests and tenants and their guests, then they are not addressed by the ADA in most cases. Just so you know, the scoping for which pools and which elements need to be accessible is located in Chapter 2 of the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines, and the design standards will be located in Chapter 10. As far as scoping goes on our pools, let us start off talking about swimming pools, a couple pictures here, one of a guy using a pool lift and another one of a gentleman using a sloped entry to get into a pool. Basically, you have a division between large pools and small pools. If you have got a pool that is 300 linear feet of pool wall or more, then you need two required accessible means of entrance into that pool. If you have less than 300 linear feet of pool wall, then only one entrance is required. Regardless of the size of the pool, the primary means of entry needs to be a pool lift or a sloped entry. So whether you need one entry or whether you need two, that first one is required to be that lift or a sloped entry. The secondary means of entry for pools that have more than 300 linear feet of pool wall are lifts, slope entries, transfer walls, pool stairs, and transfer systems, which we will get into shortly. Just to review, again, pools in general are divided into large and small. The ones 300 linear feet of pool wall and up are going to require those two means of entry, under 300 linear feet of pool wallone means of entry. Whatever size we have got, that first entry needs to be either a lift or a sloped entry. Going to move forward to looking at a sloped entry and talking a little bit about what constitutes that. This slide identifies that you need to geta sloped entry needs to go to a point that is 24 to 30 inches below the surface of the water at rest. Some of the other requirements for sloped entry is, regardless of the slope, they are required to have handrails, and there is minimum width of those handrails of 33 to 38 inches, so 33 to 38 inches space required between the handrails that serve a sloped entry. And the height is going to be like other handrails, 34 to 38. Sloped Entries are required to comply with accessible routes except for slip resistance. So your surface conditions are not called into question on sloped entries into pools or on the landings. However, the other requirements for accessible routes do apply. If you have got a ramp, or sloped entry, that is greater than a slope of 1:20, then you will require landings at the top and bottom of that sloped entry, 36 inches wide minimum by 60 inches long or deep. Handrails, again, are required regardless of the slope. They require handrail extensions, as noted in the ADAAG, at the top of the sloped entry, but not at the bottom. The handrail should meet the other requirements for the ADAAG as well, as far as width, spacing, and secure attachment. Second we have got pool lifts, and there is certain -- a fair amount of requirements for pool lifts. I''ll try to summarize them. Basically, pool lifts are required where the water does not exceed 48 inches. So if we have pools of varying depths, we want to make sure we have got those pool lifts positioned so the water depth does not exceed 48 inches where we are going down. Footrests are required they must be provided and moved with the seat. Armrests are not required, but if they are provided, they need to be removable or fold in in a raised or lowered position. In other words, they have got to be movable easily and independently so a person can move them out of the way depending on their transfer needs. All pool lifts require seats that are 16 inches wide. It catches some people off guard, but there''s no back required on a pool lift seat. However, obviously, it is a very good idea for stability. It is going to be much more usable by a wider range of people. But the ADAAG does not call for a back to that seat. The seat position, first of all, there needs to be clear floor space connected to an accessible route that is going to serve that pool lift. The pool -- the chair itself, the pool seat, in its up position, okay, at the deck position, is required to be between 16 and 19 inches above the pool deck. Pools should be capable of unassisted operation from both the deck position and the submerged position. We get quite a few questions on whether covers for pool lifts and different types of security for pool lifts are going to be compliant. They are not compliant unless that pool lift is capable of unassisted operation, both at the deck level and the water; you have got to be able to call that thing. Lifting capacity, 300 pounds absolute minimum, again, there needs to be an accessible route connected to a clear floor space. We need to be thinking about operable controls so when it is independently operable, we mean not only can we get to it, but the controls meet the requirements of the ADAAG as well for operable parts. No twisting, pinching, grasping required, or not extreme, and five pounds maximum force to operate those controls. Now we are going to talk a little bit about three other means of access into the water. You have got pictures here of, in the upper left-hand corner, a transfer system. In the upper right-hand corner of the slide, your upper right-hand corner, we have a transfer wall. And then below that is an example of pool stairs that would be accessible. Again, this would be -- these types of entries, as far as pools go, swimming pools go, could be your secondary means of entry. If you have a pool that is greater than 300 -- 300 feet of linear wall and you need those two entries, that first one has to be, again, that sloped entry or the lift. The second one may be any of these three options, the transfer system, the pool wall, transfer wall, or the pool stairs. We will start off talking about transfer walls, first of all. These are pretty common at hot tubs, spas, things like that. We are going to cover spas specifically here shortly. The transfer walls need at least one grab bar. These are the type of walls you can roll up to at deck height. You are going to have these be 16 to 19-inch wall that is 12 to 16 inches deep, okay, that a person is able to roll up to or otherwise approach, sit on the pool wall, and transfer themselves in at water level. So again, you see these a lot of times with above-deck hot tubs. The transfer walls have to have either one or two grab bars, they need at least one; all the grab bars need to be perpendicular to that pool wall and extend depth to 12 to 16-inch-wide depth of pool wall. Basically, you''ve got either one or two grab bars with a gripping surface 4 to 6 inches above the wall that a person can use to support themselves as they transfer. If you''ve got one bar provided, you need 24 inches on each side of the bar clear for a person to use. You''ve got two bars provided the clearance has to be a minimum of 24 inches between those bars. And again, the grab bars, again, need to comply with other aspects of the ADAAG as well. Now, we talked about the clear floor space needed at a lift being 36, 48 clear floor space required at transfer walls is actually going to be bigger at 60 by 60. So you need that connected to that transfer wall. I believe we mentioned it needs to be 16 to 19 inches high. The wall has to be a minimum of 60 inches long and be centered on that clear deck space, okay, so the wall itself needs to be 60 inches long, and that needs to be centered on that 60-by-60 cleared deck space that is required to use it. Another key consideration with pool walls and will become for transfer platforms and such is the surfacing. Obviously, a lot of skin exposed when we''re transferring onto these things. Prevent injuries. Wall Surfaces have to have rounded edges, no sharp, abrasive elements, so avoiding injury there. The second type we are going to talk about is a transfer system, and basically what a transfer system is is a transfer platform combined with a series of transfer steps that go down into the water and provide accessibility. So you''ve got two components of it. First is that transfer platform. Transfer platforms themselves, we need to be able to transfer on to those, need a 19-inch depth, 24-inch width minimum for that. The height, just like the transfer wall, should be 16 to 19 inches measured from the deck so we can transfer on to that platform. Now adjacent to that platform, we need that 60-by-60 clear deck space. It''s not just the wheelchair spaceclear floor spaceneeded, it''s the 60 by 60 inches minimum. That space should be centered along the 24-inch minimum unobstructed side of the transfer platform; Meaning, as your approaching it and transferring on to it, at that 24-inch width, that that 24 inch-width be centered on that clear floor space clear deck space. Connecting to the transfer platform will be transfer steps. Okay? Transfer steps should be uniform as far as height goes, uniform risers. Maximum height of transfer steps are eight inches. Okay? Shorter heights are recommended. The tread depth is required of 14 inches to 17 inches maximum, and minimum tread width is 24 inches. So each step, the maximum height of that step now is going to be 8 inches. The tread depth that you are stepping on would be 14 to 17 inches maximum. And a minimum tread width is required of 24 inches. Steps are required to extend in the water to a minimum of 18 inches below the stationary water level. Again, with the transfer platforms, the transfer steps, we need to think about the surfacing. Are there abrasive elements there? Need to make sure there are no sharp elements or anything that would potentially injure somebody making that transfer. Finally, we have requirements for accessible pool stairs as another means of getting in. The key to accessible pool stairs is to have uniform riser heights, uniform tread widths, and no open risers. So we are talking stairs that are solidly built, we are talking stairs that have the same step up each time, the same height, and we want the same depth and tread width. The tread width needs to be at least 11 inches, likely will be more. Pool stairs have to have handrails that comply with the sizing and spacing requirements of ADAAG. The width between pool stair handrails is between 20 and 24 inches, so that is required range there to have those pool stairs flanked by handrails that are 20 to 24 inches wide. They do require handrail extensions at the top landing of the stairs, but not at the bottom. Again, the top of the handrail surface, just like in other parts of the ADAAG, needs to be 34 to 38 inches above the stair nosing. Okay. A few quick notes on special types of pools: Wading pools are specifically -- must have one sloped entry when newly constructed. Handrails aren''t required on these, but sloped entry needs to extend to the deepest part of that wading pool. So wading pools, children''s pools, other things like that, really, a lift doesn''t even do it. Most of them aren''t deep enough, If they are required in new construction to have that sloped entry, not requiring handrails, though. When we come across water play components, we need to look at the play area guidelines that are listed in Chapter 10 to identify accessible routes on those -- you know, to determine the accessibility of that play structure in general. So if water play components are a part of the pool, what is going on in the pool, then we need to look to the playground guidelines as well. With water play components, if the accessible routes are submerged, you do not need to hit it, the cross-slope, running slope, or the slip resistant requirements of the accessible routes. We should be hitting on things, but if the routes are submerged, there is -- you need not meet those cross-slopes, running slopes, and slip-resistant requirements, the surface requirements. Accessibility is generally not required on water slides. It is required that we have an accessible route to the edge of the catch pool. So you need to be able to approach the edge of that catch pool. Should be on an accessible route, again, clear floor space needed for a wheelchair if attached to an accessible route. Okay. Directly about spas. Each spa, under the new standards, requires one accessible means of entry. Okay? That means of entry is required to be either a pool lift, a transfer wall, or a transfer system, which we just covered. Each spa, one accessible means of entry. There is an exception for spas in a cluster. So spas that are grouped together, 5% of those spas, but no less than 1, needs an accessible means of entry. What does in a cluster mean? Adjacent to each other is pretty close. When they talk about a cluster of restrooms, they talk about being in sight of each other. However, my understanding is that when we look at spas in a cluster, if they have them -- the farther we have them separated from each other, the less likely they are to be in a cluster. To be able to really nail that down about what designates an exact cluster, I do not know if I can do that, but I can tell you if you do have spas in the same area, reasonably close to each other, you are probably going to be able to consider those a cluster. Again, the entry can be a pool lift, a transfer wall, or a transfer system. So those are the quick reviews. Some of the regulations or some of the building -- the standards of where these lifts -- where these accesses are needed, what type of accesses, and what they may look like. Let me get into now what Department of Justice expects of Title II entities. We will talk about new construction, then we will talk about alterations and how to apply program accessibility. So for Title II entities, state and local governments. The Department of Justice expects a new construction standard, that there be a fixed lift at each swimming pool and spa covered by the standards. They do not allow for sharing. So if you have a pool and a spa next to each other by the new construction standards, Department of Justice rules out sharing those lifts. It is not only a usability thing, it is also a means of egress issue. So no sharing in new construction. You can use portables only if they''re in a fixed position and independently usable during operating hours. Okay? So portable lifts, I mean, it may be an option, but the fixedness that Department of Justice (DOJ) expects must at least be there during operating hours. It can -- you know, there may be reasons to put them away, whether it is security or whatever, but at the same time, it also creates a bit of a -- I would say an administrative concern of being able to have that in place at all times during operating hours. So that needs to be taken into account. Then the new construction, basically we want a fixed lift. No sharing of those lifts. And need one at each swimming pool and spa covered by the standards. Alterations will be, you know, a little bit of a different story. Title II entities are required to meet that new construction standard to the greatest degree feasible. Okay? So a fixed lift is going to be -- in alterations, a fixed lift is required at each pool and spa unless that Title II entity can demonstrate a financial hardship, technical infeasibility or if they can show they have overall program accessibility, which we are going to get to here in a second. DOJ went on to clarify that fixed lifts, again, may include that portable or movable lift that otherwise complies with the standards. And can be attached firmly and fixed to that pool deck. Again, it must be in fixed place and operational during all hours it is open to the public. So when it comes down -- I mean, new construction, I think it is pretty obvious. You do it by the new standards. We need a fixed lift. There is no sharing. And that is what the requirement is. In Existing facilities, in existing programs, we are looking at whether or not the entity is provided program access. So program accessibility is going to be the key question of whether or not -- the answer to the question of does my community need a pool lift? How many? And where? Where should we put them? All these things come down to just basic program accessibility considerations. Just to review and dig into a definition a little bit. Program accessibility. You need to operate each service program or activity, so when viewed in its entirety, is readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities. Does not say anything about meeting absolute new construction standards outside of new construction, but what it does say is look at the program in its overall state, okay, in its entirety. So first of all, we will have to identify where our swimming facilities are as a Title II entity, say City of Columbia, Missouri, could identify 7 public pools across Columbia in different areas. Okay? And then that entity, Columbia, Missouri, would want to identify where they are compliant at this point with the program accessibility regulations, and as far as entry into their pools and access to their programs. In other words, you would be looking at, as a public entity, your overall swimming program. We need to be able to define that, we need to be able to know the extent of the services we offer at different locations. What is involved in our swimming program? Look at it in its entirety. You think about, again, you do not necessarily need to have everyone be accessible when we talk about removing barriers. When we look at providing program accessibility, okay, we want to look at things like geographic equity. Okay? Throughout -- are all parts of the city being served to the geographic area. What are the range of services at those different facilities? Does it make more sense to start moving towards program access in a facility that has more activity going on than one that is more isolated and has fewer things going on? You can also take into account any information gathered through needs assessments or other ways of identifying who -- you know, makeup of your community and what the needs might be there. Just to key in on this, again, program accessibility. When we talk about existing programs, then we have to look at everything in its entirety. We want to make sure that in its entirety, these entities are giving opportunities for people to use their programs. They may not all be accessible immediately, but they need to step back and take a look at how they are currently providing that. What are some reasons to not have program accessibility for a Title II entity? Well, first of all, let us just talk about the limitations on program access. Entities do not need to make each existing facility accessible and usable by people with disabilities. Again, we need to remove barriers as necessary to ensure that those programs are open and accessible to people with disabilities. That may not mean removing all physical barriers at one time or all physical barriers under a certain framework of time. There should be a plan to do that. It should be, certainly, part of a self-evaluation and transition plan as required in the ADA of Title II entities. But so you need to look -- so entities will benefit from having that type of plan and having that kind of information about what their current barriers are, and they will be able to make smart decisions about how to remove those barriers, where to remove those barriers, so it is not only economically sound, but also opens up opportunities to the greatest population possible. Another limitation, obviously does not require taking action if it would destroy historical significance. Does not require taking action that would result in undue financial and administrative burdens. So from a financing standpoint, that can be an argument. Also, does -- program accessibility does not require taking action that would fundamentally alter the nature of the service, program, or activity. I do not think that is really here or there with this topic. When you come down to, though, talking about limitations on program accessibility, the burden of proof is going to be on that entity, and again, not to stress it too much, but that self-evaluation, being able to show that good-faith effort, knowing what the barriers are, knowing what our current situation is, and being able to show that the steps that have been taken are not only, you know, geared towards meeting the greatest amount of needs with the resources that are available, but again, that good-faith effort coming in and showing that hey, this is what we are trying to do. That is what''s really required here. Just a couple notes on safety, because the question has come up fairly often. A public entity can impose legitimate safety requirements necessary for the safe operation of services, programs, or activities, once again, as long as they are based on actual risks and not speculation. One of the biggest questions that comes out is, What about kids playing on these things and the liability involved there? Department of Justice has been very clear that this isn''t a legitimate argument for Title II entities or Title III. They have not seen any cases that point towards misuse of accessible equipment as creating injuries or other safety issues. It does not mean it has never happened. It just means there is no proof for it, and we cannot necessarily say we are not going to provide a fixed lift, we are only going to have a portable lift because we do not, you know, want kids playing on it. We just want to bring it out when we can. I mean, it is an arguable point, but the Department of Justice has pretty much shot it down ahead of time. So again, those public entity may impose legitimate safety requirements. Some of those that come up, number of lifeguards on duty, making sure we have posted rules, and other considerations that we generally take into account for the general population. So just wanted to make note of that. Department of Justice got ahead on that one and said this is not going to be a real argument for having fixed lift in place during operating hours. Just want to keep in mind that there are other methods, again, to achieve program accessibility other than new construction, other than removing all barriers. Acquisition of redesign of equipment. Assignment of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS), alternate, accessible locations. I think when we are talking about somebody calls in and want to use a certain pool, it behooves the Title II entity, state or local government, to be able to say here is the barriers that that pool, and here is what''s going on at the other pool, maybe we can provide you a service there. To be able to make these kind of decisions on the fly, and in structured ways too, to communicate the program accessibility and what is being done. That good-faith effort towards doing that. And as it applies to public entity, of course, make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, and procedures necessary to avoid discrimination. Public entity, just as reminder, not required to provide personal devices to individuals with disabilities, such as wheelchairs. What you want to think about here is overall program accessibility, again. Is our program accessible to, let us say we have a population of we know 15 people during the week who come over and want to use our pool facility. Okay? But maybe cannot do it because their chairs will not go in the water. We want to think about what the need is in the community. That is part of the issue of program access for Title II. We need to take that into account. I guess what I am saying is I would consider, you know, the consideration out there that providing wheelchairs that maybe a person could transfer into if they do not want to take their chair into the water. Can be damaging to wheelchairs -- obviously, power chairs are not going in. So it is just something to think about for Title II entities from a program access side. Technically, again, you do not need to do the personal devices, but I would look at it as a program access issue and making good-faith effort to ensuring we are including as many as possible. I am going to stop there and take a breather and find out if you have any questions on specifically how this applies to Title II. We are going to talk about Title III and how it relates to businesses such as hotel lodging and other businesses that have swimming facilities. But I will open it up for questions right now.
All right. Thanks, Troy. In a moment here I am going to have Tammy come back on the line and give instructions for phone participants. Again, for those participating in the webinar platform, if you have a question regarding either the technical requirements or the application of these requirements to state and local governments, double-click Great Lakes in the participant list and submit your question there. That will go to the moderators and to the presenter. And if you are using keyboard navigation, use the F6 key to get to the participant list, arrow up or down to get to the Great Lakes and double-click on that and ask the question. And now I''ll have Tammy give instructions for phone participants on how to ask questions.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on the phone lines, if you would like to ask a question, please press the star key and then the number 1 on your touchtone telephone. You will hear a tone indicating that you''ve been placed into the queue.
While I''m waiting for the questions to queue up there, I will give you a couple that have come in. They are similar, so I am going to give you both. The first is a particular scenario where a local park district has five existing pools, one of which is scheduled to be -- is scheduled to be replaced in eight years as part of a long-range plan. And the question is, you know, do all of the pools need to be accessible? The other question is similar. It is do all park district pools need to be made accessible? Or if they make one of the pools accessible, can they leave the rest alone?
Okay, yes, let us address that. And I think there is not a firm formula and not a firm answer that we can give on, you know, we have got five pools. You know, how many do we need accessible? What we are looking at, again, we need to step back and take a look at that program access. Let us take that first scenario where we have got five pools and one is going to be replaced in eight years. Okay? So we are certainly looking at eight years down the road having that brand-new facility meeting the requirements of the ADA. The question is what is going on in the meantime? You know, for those next eight years? And I think, you know, I mean, the guidance I have on it is that you have got five pools. I would take a look at, again, what services you are providing. Okay? What are we providing in each pool? You know, if it is simple and just, you know, a pool at each one, simple enough. Are we providing swim lessons and other types, SCUBA lessons, things like that at one facility versus another? The bare minimum, I think you have got to provide access for in a situation where you have got five pools is absolutely one, just for starters, to be able to show the first step towards program access. If we do not have any, then you just cannot really show it. All you can show is existing undue burden or whatever you might be able to try to argue there. But you''re looking at a bare minimum of 1. So that first step should be taken. I would put this in the framework of a self-evaluation, okay, and saying what are our barriers at these pools? Which ones are the heaviest used? Which ones are the easiest to modify? You know, what are these characteristics that is going to make moving towards fixing this pool up, okay, better than pools number 4 and 5? Okay? We are always working towards full accessibility, okay, so just saying one, that does not mean your program is accessible. What you can do is move towards greater program accessibility and show that good-faith effort by just taking into account, you know, exactly what the given situation is, you know, how geographically spread you are, how, you know, accessible the community are these locations. You take into account these different facets of it and prioritize -- prioritize the way you are going to get people in your programs. You know, the eventual goal, all five of them have accessible means to get in. The requirement is that you make a good-faith effort and meet the accessible pools requirement, and I think you can get there. So Depending on your resources, depending on how old your facilities are, that could mean that one accessible pool is a long ways towards program accessibility and what you are going to be able to be able to do. If you are swimming in the dough, you can argue program accessibility requirements is going to be higher. In the sense that, program accessibility is what it is, but your working with the current situation, you take a look at that, you evaluate what you can do to remove barriers and start by providing at least one. And moving on towards that an making your program more inclusive.
Okay. Great, Troy. Tammy, do you have any questions on the telephone?
Yes, we do. Our first question comes from the line of Rick Edwards. Your line is open.
Thanks very much. My question is I have not seen anything in the requirements for the surface of the steps, especially since they are going to be out in the sun, anything to protect them from being too hot or from sharp or sandpaper type edges.
That is an interesting question. I do not think there is anything on how hot the surface may get, but yeah, you know, I think it is certainly a consideration I had not even thought of. The surface itself, the sandpaper, you know -- the sandpaper, there is a lot of situations where people have, in practice, you know, end up getting those abrasions on their skin, especially a lot of people, the lower body with impairment, are not going to be able to feel some of that. So definitely take into account the abrasiveness, the other unsafe things about surface. As far as a surface that mitigates that heating up, you know, I do not know if there is a specific -- I do not think there is a specific standard for that, but I think you could make the argument, certainly, that, you know, not taking that into account is possibly lending itself to a surface that is -- could, you know, injure somebody with a disability. So in other words, I think if you got -- so a couple examples. I mean, you can choose to use white, you know, and, you know, try to find out, you know, if there is types of surfaces out there that do not heat up as much, okay, like we would for any other patron. And -- but -- that versus a steel mirror surface which is going to be blazing hot in ten minutes. I may be talking a little bit too much.
That''s all right. I wanted to make sure there was not something I was missing because we had not found anything that specifies you cannot use, you know, like aluminum in terms of a ramp or that sort of thing. Right, materials are not specified in the standards.
Not that I know of but I think it is a legitimate concern, and I think it is arguable that, you know, a safe surface would imply that kind of thing.
Rick, thanks for the question. Tammy, do we have one more question on the telephone?
We have two more. Next question is from Gary. Your line is open.
Hi. My name is Paul. For the past 21 years, my company has done nothing but deal with setting up transfer settings for nonambulatory individuals in all settings. We have done many, many pools that cater to the nonambulatory population. The ADA obviously does not concern themselves with transfers that occur between the wheelchair and the pool lift. So therefore, we have to modify any pool lift to make sure that particular lift can take someone from the wheelchair to the water and then back to the wheelchair again. So even self-operated operated pool lift, like you guys have required for ADA specifications, is completely useless in that situation. And all of these pools that cater to that population and set up programs for the nonambulatory population are now not in compliance with ADA. Number one, why does the ADA not go far enough to deal with the nonambulatory population to deal with the transfer between the wheelchair and the pool lift? Number two, since they have already invested thousands of dollars in a lift that is specifically designed to service their population and does not deal with an individual that is somewhat ambulatory like ADA seems to concern themselves with, how -- do they now have to expend another many, many thousands of dollars to get a, quote unquote, ADA-compliant pool lift, which will really do them no good at all?
I hear what you are saying. First of all, you get the question of -- you start getting to the point of where does it stop as far as being able to, you know -- an accessible parking space, for example. Well --
No, no, no. ADA should, first and foremost, deal with the most involved individuals, and they do not seem to deal with that at all. There is no thought whatsoever to how a person gets in and out of a wheelchair, for example, ADA only concerns themselves with individuals that can somehow get in and out of that particular wheelchair. In most of Europe and Canada, the first step is getting a person in and out of a wheelchair. Just like when you are dealing with a pool that services a nonambulatory population, the first accept is how can you safely get a person from the wheelchair to the water and the water back to the wheelchair? Forget about the fact that there are all kinds of things that occur in the locker room. So now you are going to have -- I have dealt with many, many pools that we designed lifts for and accomplished their particular program''s needs, are they now going to be forced to buy an ADA pool lift that is really going to sit there and do them no good?
Thank you for your question. Troy, you want to go ahead and address that?
Yeah, okay. Basically, I cannot vouch for the Access Board, the Department of Justice, on why they have not come up with a transfer system with a pool lift to get somebody out of their chair, pick them up, put them in that chair. I do not know that answer. To me it sounds like -- what I was getting to - there is a lot of accessibility features out there that we do not necessarily plan to pick people up out of their wheelchair and plan in some other way to make that feature usable. That said, I think it is a legitimate concern that the ADA -- you certainly have the right to that opinion that they do not go far enough with people who are more physically challenged than other folks.
Right. And Troy, the ADA standards are minimum sets of standards. It does not preclude one from going above and beyond what the ADA minimum standards are. Under the 2010 standards, you can also use equivalent facilitation.
To get to your point about what these businesses or what these places may have to do who are, you know, specifically serving certain populations. I mean, you do have the argument, okay, first of all, the equivalent facilitation. It is a high bar to hit saying something that is equivalent to what is in the ADA standard. But I think when you have got a situation where you have got people, got a business, got a program catering to somebody with more significant disabilities, it also goes to the fundamental nature of the program. What you may find is a majority or significant number of those people involved in that swimming program, for example, need to - need assistance with transfers. Thats why I point out that the ADA does not mandate, necessarily, that you provide personal assistance, but the fact is if you are going to be running that type of program, I think it is fundamental to the nature of what you are doing to provide that assistance. Now, that -- I agree there are other ways to do it. I am sure there are different types of pool lifts that may facilitate what you are talking about. But I do not think people have to go in or rip those lifts out or -- look at what services they are providing, how they are providing it. And if the argument is that, you know what, this is the safest way to go and this is our population and this is how we are serving them, I think that is a pretty good argument.
All right, Troy, do you want to pick up with the presentation, then we''ll get to open up to questions again when you are finished with that.
Okay. We are just going to finish up talking about Title III entities. Here we are talking about the lodging industry, various industries, and they are going to -- you know, the health, workout places, things like that, so all these places that are impacted by the Department of Justice''s decision and regulations here. Title III entities, same thing as expected as a Title II in new construction. If you have new construction, they want a fixed lift at each swimming pool and spa covered by the standards. Again, no sharing. It''s the same thing with Title II. Portables only if they are in a fixed position and independently usable during operating hours. That is the new construction requirement. Now, on alterations, you are always required to meet new construction standards to the greatest degree feasible. So that will be a fixed lift required at each pool and spa unless it is not readily achievable for that public accommodation to do. That is where it comes. That is the big question is what is readily achievable for each individual business and each individual public accommodation. When using portable lifts, okay, a fixed lift, again, can have that portable component, okay, but it has to be in a fixed place during all operating hours. So it is there and it is usable independently by individuals with disabilities. Readily achievable barrier removal is our real question here. We know we are required if we are building a new pool in a gym facility that we need to build it with accessible means of entrance. Now, we have got some places, some lodging facilities -- I spend a lot of time in Branson. They''ve got anything from brand-new Holiday Inns, real luxury, to ma-and-pa places that are built on the side of a hill, and you know, they did not make 10 grand last year. Okay in so there is a lot of different types of businesses out there and a lot of different ways they will be affected by these regulations. Regardless of if you are at Holiday Inn or that mom-and-pop store, public accommodations are required to remove barriers that are readily achievable to do. The actual language in the law easily accomplishable and able to be carried out without much difficulty or expense. Well, that is nice, but what does that mean? We do not have a formula for what that is. They tell you to take into account several factors, okay, the nature and the cost of the action needed. Example would be, you know, there is a lot of wading pools out there that were built 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago, okay, that do not have sloped entries. The only compliant way of getting into a wading pool at this point. It is going to be pretty expensive for most of those providers to rip out a pool wall and create a sloped entry long enough to get into the deepest part of the pool. It is going to be a very difficult kind of action, probably going to be very expensive. Okay? So you take that into account when you are considering if it is readily achievable for you to remove that barrier. You need to take into account what financial resources you have. You know, take into account the number of people, effect on expenses and resources, legitimate safety requirements you may have, and you know, take into account what resources are available for not only -- you know, potentially any parent corporation as well, which we will get into. There it is. If applicable, the type of operation or operations of any parent corporation or entity, including the compositions structure, the (inaudible) the work place, and the parent company. So it is not just the holiday - it is not necessarily just the Holiday Inn guy there who has a franchise. They do look up and look at the resources that would be available to the company as a bigger company. So how do we decide whether or not we are going to remove barriers? Well, let us take a hotel situation here. When we look at approaching readily achievable barrier removal, it is not required to do self-evaluation, but it really is going to help if you can identify what the barriers are existing in your hotel because -- or just taking a hotel situation here. You have got a number of different things going on in a hotel. You have got -- but the primary thing going on there is lodging. So you try to identify what barriers there are to accessibility that you have, and you want to place something like a swimming pool lift into those priorities. Okay. Where does that come in? Can people get into my rooms? Can people -- is there a unit with a king-size bed and an accessible bathroom that somebody could get into? So thinking about our priorities, and that is what we are going to get into here with barrier removals. Department of Justice has identified four priorities. Okay? It said priority 1 for barrier removal: access to a place of public accommodation from public sidewalks, parking, or transportation. That is number one. If you do not have that, if that is one of your barriers, that is one place that you are going to start removing barriers prior to doing a pool lift. Okay? You are going to take these things into account based on Department of Justice''s priority, but also your existing condition, depending on if you are a gym, hotel, whatever it might be. You want to be able to provide access to that accommodation, maybe an entrance ramp. You want people getting in the doors, you want accessible parking places. Those are the first thing Department of Justice identifies as priority 1. Priority 2 would be access to areas of a place of public accommodation where goods and services are made available to the public. Okay? You can argue that this is where your swimming pools are coming in. You could also argue it is in priority 4. You know, there is no specific thing that says your pools are in this priority. However, you can certainly, under priority 2, consider goods and services as being that pool that is available to people. Okay? So that''s priority 2. They want you to, after getting people in, provide access to those areas where goods and services are made available to the public. Now, again, I am looking at what lodging facility, for example, or a gym is doing. In a lodging facility, in a hotel, you know, I think your goods and services are prioritized as well. Again, do you have sleeping rooms that are available to people? Can somebody get a bite to eat if you have a restaurant? Can somebody get to the pool? Can somebody get to different areas where these services are provided? Then can a person get into that pool? Taking into account the plan for readily achievable barrier removal takes into account all those barriers and prioritizes the removal of them. Eventually, yes, we want to get to full compliance. But it does not -- but again, it has to also be taken in context. Priority 3 will be access to the restroom facilities. Pretty straightforward. Then priority 4, any other measures necessary to provide access to goods, services, and facilities. Again, I think we need to keep in mind what the fundamental nature is of the business. If it is a gym, it is pretty much fundamental nature to provide that swimming pool. That is what they are providing. In the sense of some hotels, the fundamental nature would be having a place to sleep. Then we get to these other areas, these amenities, these extras. So I think you really have to be thoughtful about where you put the lift and providing access to the pool. In the big picture, what your barriers remembers are in the business. And I think your self-evaluation goes a long way towards doing that. So for businesses that have provided a lift, you know, you really want to make sure that we are maintaining that lift, it is in working condition when the pool is opened, you know, just understanding what it is going to take for upkeep, staff support or maintenance. Think about operational policies. We want this moving smoothly. Let us make sure it is in place, operable, and people know how to use it. Really stress ongoing staff training, how to respond to questions from individuals with disabilities, whether you have access to your pool or not, being able to describe that in a customer service kind of way. And let us see. DOJ made a very clear statement on any fear that pools or spas may have to be closed. I am going to read it. A pool or spa will never be required if it is not readily achievable to comply with the requirements regardless of the reason that it''s not readily achievable. In other words, if you have a legitimate, good-faith, solid, reasonable argument, that it is not readily achievable to provide access, then you have got -- then it does not require that you close that pool or spa. You just have legitimate reason to not be providing access because it is too expensive, it is too involved, whatever. You know, the principles of readily achievable barrier removal we have talked about. The same basic concept applies to Title II. Of course, again, state and local governments with program accessibility. DOJ makes it pretty clear that we are not talking about closing public pools just because you cannot afford a lift. Any questions? I will leave it open. That is just sort of a summary of readily achievable barrier removal, some of the things we want to take into account. If you are able -- I think the key for business owners for public accommodations is to be aware of what the barriers are, be aware of what it would take to come up to compliance, and have a good-faith, reason strategy for removing barriers that, one, is not going to break the business, but also shows a good-faith effort towards meeting these barrier removal requirements. Readily achievable barrier removal is a very vague concept in a lot of ways. There is no formula. It is difficult for a lot of business owners to deal with that. I cannot say I blame them. I mean, I think if I was being held to a certain standard to provide access under a civil rights law and it had to do with my resources, I would like a formula. But we do not have one. That is what we are stuck with, to identify what your barriers are, what is a reasonable way to get rid of them, and how to address that. Where does a pool lift fit into that?
All right. Troy, do you just want to quickly mention the figures that you provided at the end of your presentation?
Yes. This is just in case we needed them, but so you have them as well, it is just a list of figures compiled in the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines that show dimensions for things like transfer platforms, transfer stairs, clear floor spaces, things like that. In other words, just tried to consolidate figures so you have them in one spot instead of necessarily having to flip back too much. That is why those slides are provided. If questions come up where we need to go to those, we will jump to those. But otherwise, they are just for your information.
Great. So for folks in the webinar room, if you have questions, Title III, Title II, go ahead and submit those in the chat area. I am going to ask Tammy to give instructions for our phone participants again how they can get into the queue to ask a question.
To ask a question over the phone lines, please press star then the number 1 on your touchtone telephone. You will hear a tone indicating that you have been placed into the queue. If your question''s been answered or you wish to remove yourself from the Questions and Answers (Q&A), you may press the pound sign.
Okay. Troy, let me get you a question that came in previously in the webinar room. This one was a person thought that the portable lifts were only allowed if purchased prior to March 15, 2012.
Let us look at portable in two ways here. First of all, yeah, a lot of people went out and bought lifts. Again, that is one consideration, not to get too far off the path here, but that is one consideration when you are looking at program access and readily achievable barrier removal. If you can point to something you have got, say a portable lift, you may be able to say, you know, we are providing access for quite a few people, it does not need the new construction standards. However, we have got bigger fish to fry. And apply those efforts towards other types of barrier removal. There is two ways to look at portable. There is portable in the sense they roll around, you can move them from pool to pool. Then there is portable meaning they are fixed while in position but they can be removed and put away, in some storage facility, as long as they are there operable. A requirement is that a pool lift be fixed in position during operating hours. That is the absolute minimum requirement for new construction. So you have got to have something that is going to be able to be fixed to that deck whether or not it can be put in storage or not. A lot of these that just roll around and do not mount to the deck, technically they are not going to meet that standard, they are not going to meet the new construction standard unless they can be mounted and fixed to that deck, they are not allowed. However, again, depending on if you are arguing program accessibility or readily achievable barrier removal, and how accessible your program or your business is, I think you have a pretty decent argument to say hey, we bought this in 2011 to be ahead of the game, it meets all the requirements here except it is not affixed to the deck. Then I would start -- I am justifying here a little bit, but I think that is what -- when you do not have a formula, you have to be able to justify your actions in that good-faith effort. I would not say -- the last thing I would say is as long as they are fairly compliant, I would not pitch those in the river and buy new ones. I would be looking at there has got to be other things to work on before that, I would think. That is just opinion based on a hypothetical situation.
Also, Troy, in the Department and Justice question and answers accessibility requirements for existing pools at hotels and other public accommodations, they do mention in one of the questions that the Department will not pursue enforcement against operators of pool that purchased portable lifts that complied with the 2010 standards if they were purchased prior to March 15, 2012, like you mentioned, as long as the lift is in operation and available for use at all times, that the pool is open to the public. In the document they cite the confusion amongst some pool operators about the requirement to have pool lifts fixed to the platform. Tammy, let us go to -- do we have a question on the telephone?
We have a question from the line of Sheila Laurie. Your line is open.
Go ahead with your question, Sheila.
Our question has been answered since the last time we were able to ask questions.
That is how good Troy is. He answers the question before he knows what they are. Do we have another question?
Thank you. Once again, if you have a question, please press star then 1 on your touchtone telephone.
All right. Let me go to questions that have come in the chat room... How does a hotel confirm that they have a spa where it is not going to be readily achievable to provide that accessible means of entry and exit out of the pool? Is there some type of application or form that has to be submitted to the Department of Justice?
No, there is no form. Again, this is something that you just have to make the decision as a business on -- I mean, we know what the law is. There is no application requirement, for example. Okay? So you take into account what your existing condition is. It is pretty tough to put in a transfer wall for a spa that is at deck level. There are various reasons that spas in particular can be difficult to provide access to unless you have a lift. I am not sure if I really answered that question very well, though.
I think you talked about it, Troy, when you talked about DOJ regulations do not require places of public accommodation to do those self-evaluations. Those are the types of things that operators of pools are going to need to do in case they are challenged on whether they did engage in barrier removal and whether or not it is readily achievable, that they go through the process and bring in whomever to give them cost expectations and as to whether or not a particular element, pool, spa, whatever it may be, can be made accessible. Let us go to -- we have quite a few questions coming in the webinar room. This is another one along the lines of safety. What if a hotel primarily caters to youth groups, and they are concerned about horseplay on the lift? And you know, what is suggested in the absence of life guard or other type of monitoring device?
The concern is not -- I understand the concern is not disability related one at all. It is more of a teenager and youngster concern. While -- I just want to stress that the Department of Justice has already said we do not have any reason to think that is an issue. Okay? Whether or not that is -- I mean, I understand that there may be some opinions on that opinion or that finding, but that is what they have said is it is not an argument not to have these accessible features, these lifts. I would take into account how you are ensuring safety in other ways. If we are not providing life guards, do we have posted rules? What are the posted rules? Do we hold people to those posted rules? Are we holding a youth group where we let kids go out completely unsupervised and do what they want? It depends on the nature of what is going on there. But we are not going to find -- it is going to be real hard for us to come up with a scenario where the Department of Justice has not already said it is not real arguable. Again, I think it has a lot to do with the established safety rules, the established expectations. There is other -- someone at the Department of Justice always points out there is other things people can horse around on besides a lift. I understand this adds another element to it, but that is basically the way it is addressed. You address it with your safety, your programming, and however else you are keeping those kids safe.
All right. Excellent. Let us get another one from the webinar room, then we will check with Tammy. A question about whether or not the requirements apply to community pools, I am guessing they mean state or local government pool, if the pool is used for team swim meets. So some type of competition pool or a pool where you have teams competing against each other.
If that were the only use, that pool was never used except for competition, you would still need it... That is a simple answer on it.
All right. Straightforward. Tammy, do we have any other --
The only outside -- if it would otherwise not qualify as a place of public accommodation, okay, you know, if it was in one of those exempt areas, such as a church, yeah. But like the University of Missouri, we have got a competition pool, but it certainly falls under the requirements because there are competitors who may need it, and also most places are going to open up to other types of activities.
Yeah. All right, Tammy, any other questions on the telephone at this time?
There are no questions in the queue.
All right. Troy, another question submitted -- I guess this is a public accommodation -- does the pool have to be kept pool side when the pool is closed? You think of some of the climates, you have outdoor pools, do those have to remain in place at times when the pool itself is not open?
No, just, again, during operating hours. If your pool is open to the public from 10:00 to 6:00 from the summer months and that is when that pool lift needs to be in there. Again, the key is that it be not necessarily that it cannot be taken from the deck, okay, but that it can be fixed during operating hours.
Okay. Excellent. Here is another question from the webinar room. For community-only pools, all other ADA requirements apply such as for locker rooms, bathrooms, and shower rooms?
Absolutely. Pretty much anything that is part of that program or is supported by that state or local government is going to be covered. Certainly if we are looking at new construction of pool facilities, should be looking at everything such as locker rooms, showers, changing rooms, any types of facilities, any part of that, absolutely.
We have one more question on the phone lines now. We have a question from a line of Teresa. Your line is set.
Okay, here is our question. We did not know for sure, is there a compliance date for pools that are not new construction and ones that have not had any alterations done?
Yes. Basically, if we are talking about Title II or Title III, it is an ongoing responsibility to ensure one, program access; or two, to engage in readily achievable barrier removals. So technically, that has been a requirement since the advent of the ADA with this specific -- with this specific standard, we now have something to point to which is saying this is what it should look like. But you know, there is not a drop-dead point where I can say you are absolutely out of compliance with program accessibility because you do not have lifts at all your swimming facilities as of January 31, 2013. The regulation is enacted. Okay? And as it always has been, we have either the responsibility to show that our programs are accessible or that we have engaged in readily achievable barrier removal. So we need to be able to point to that. That responsibility was there before January 31. Now we just have specific standards to point to and say that is what it should look like in new construction.
All right. Great. Got another one submitted online. This is going back to the portable lift question. A person indicated that they had asked their question incorrectly. The questioner wants to know can covered entities purchase nonfixed/portable lifts going forward?
For new construction?
For new construction or for -- to meet program, access, or barrier removal.
New construction for Title II or III, the answer is no. You need something that is going to be fixed. Okay. Now, what you can argue is if you already have something, okay, you can argue that you are providing program accessibility by having that. You would be -- the big thing about January 31 is it says in -- you know, in new construction, when you are building something, this is what it is going to look like. Okay? It gives us, as existing entity, okay, whether we are public or businesses, it gives us a standard now to shoot for. We now know what it is supposed to look like. Okay? Where in the past we did not. So I guess what I am saying is in new construction, no, it is not acceptable. In Alterations, it is acceptable if you can show it is not readily achievable to not do it, or to do it, or if you can show something like we talked about such as equivalent facilitation. Maybe we have got this certain type of lift because of the population we serve or whatever. In other words, it sounds like the question is, you know, we have got some portable lifts, and can we keep them without buying new ones? I think you can make a pretty good argument for that as long as they were required before, DOJ, March 15, 2012, and that they otherwise meet the safety and construction standards of the ADAAG.
Right. I think some of the confusion around this is the not really the issue of portable versus nonportable. The issue, you know, going forward is fixed versus nonfixed. Because you know, technically, you could have a, quote unquote, portable lift that meets the technical requirements of the 2010 standards, and if you affix that to the pool deck, that is going to comply with the 2010 standard. So it is not so much portable versus nonportable. It is fixed versus nonfixed.
Just to color this a little bit too in the sense that another requirement is -- one of the basic requirements is -- in new construction is that lifts are not shared between pools or pool and spa. Whereas, you know, the portable ones, those -- you know, those you can run back and forth. But they do not meet that standard if they cannot be fixed. Now, so -- but again, if you have got something like that in an existing condition, you know, I think you are clearly, again, out of compliance with the new construction standard, but again, what kind - that is when you start making the case of, you know, we have got -- we are providing this access in one way or another. We have purchased this before there was rules on how to do it, and guess what, it works, and for 90% of the situations, you know what? No, it is not fixed to the thing. We will include that in our plan for barrier removal. I mean, again, it comes down to each specific situation. But I guess the long and short of it is the new construction standard is that lift be fixed during operating hours or at all times. Okay? And then if you are an existing facility, you start looking at the access you are providing through your programs as a Title II entity or your performance in readily achievable barrier removal over the last 25 years.
Okay. Excellent. Another question from online. Another questioner asks if the pool has over 300 linear feet and must provide two means of accessible entry, do both have to be a lift?
No. You can use a lift, sloped entry, transfer platform, pool stairs, or transfer wall as that other one.
As the secondary. Okay.
If you need a second one, if you have got a big pool, that second one could be any of those.
We do have another question on the phone line from the line of Barry Whaley. Your line is open.
Thank you. Troy, I guess I am still confused or just for clarification, what do we mean by "fixed" ? I mean, does it actually have to be bolted to the pool deck? Can it be a sleeve where the main components of the lift are fitted in? I just want to make sure that I am --
Stop right there and say your sleeve would be fine. When we talk about fixed, I mean -- what I mean there is not necessarily -- you know, it is either bolted in, okay, or it is got a base that you can attach it to securely. So you have got some mechanism by which it is anchored to the ground. Okay? So that sleeve may very well do it. Now, does that specifically answer your question, or do you have a follow-up question?
If you would pull his line back up, Tammy.
It does. I just wanted to make sure that by fixed, it certainly can be removed if necessary, like in the instance you mentioned before, of a competition pool, where you may need to remove that lift if it is causing an obstruction in the racing lane.
As long as it operates, absolutely. They have got sleeves out there, they can put it in there if they need it.
Right. Thank you.
All right. Question, Troy, about -- for Title III. Any tax benefits available to businesses for existing pools barrier removal?
Absolutely. There is -- depending on the size of your business, there is tax credits and tax incentives. I am sorry. Tax credits and tax deductions. And if you contact your local regional center, we can provide you that - I am sorry. Local ADA Center, your -- the ADA Center in your region, we can provide that information to you. I believe the IRS has a packet on it as well.
Yes, yeah. The Department of Justice has several technical assistance documents on pools as well as the tax information that you can get from your regional ADA Center, or the tax -- sorry. The pool documents are available on the ada.gov homepage, if you are interested in taking a look at that. And then where is that question about handrails here? The question is if they want to put handrails on the sloped entry, what specifications must they follow?
Handrails on a sloped entry, we are looking at, first of all, I think the width is the thing to keep into consideration here. It is sort of - it is 33 to 38 inches between those handrails. Okay? So sort of a funky little dimension compared to other parts of the ADAAG. So the handrail width is going to be 33 to 38. The height is 34 to 38. And basically, you have got extensions at the top, okay, but not at the bottom. And then for spacing and size and all that, it is just - it is straight out of the ADAAG. It is the same, the handrail requirements that are in Chapter 5 of the ADAAG. And that is for diameter, for spacing, and all that. So it is -- other than the handrail width, the -- oh, yeah, one thing I wanted to mention on it too is...you do need the handrails regardless of the slope. So even if you are under 1:20 on a sloped entry, the handrails are required. I just did not want to forget that.
All right. Let us get -- one last question for you, Troy. Lots of great information. This one - I am surprised this has not come up earlier. If a pool is not public such as in a neighborhood -- and I am guessing that this person is talking about, you know, a pool controlled, operated by, you know, a homeowners association -- you know, does the ADA -- the 2010 standards apply for the pool and also do the standards apply to the restrooms and locker rooms in that community pool house?
The answer is generally no because -- and basically, the ADA is not going to apply. If this is a residential-based type of facility, okay, meaning serving residences there, that are used only by those people who live there and their guests, okay, so it is not really -- it does not fall under the heading of a public accommodation that way, it does not fall under Title III that way, it is just not one of the categories. Now, as soon as that is opened up to public events, then it is a place of public accommodation, and all those things do come into account. But in general, you know, in those situations that you are describing, I would be quick to suggest you call fair housing first because I think it is more of a housing issue and get the best guidance you can from a fair housing standpoint. So from the ADA standpoint, the types of pools you are talking about that are only open to those people who live there and their guests just do not fall under the public accommodation heading.
All right. Great, great, Troy. Well, for folks that did not get their questions answered or who have questions come up down the line, you can always reach your regional ADA Center by calling 800-949-4232 or you can visit www.ADAta.org to get access to your regional ADA center''s website. Troy, I want to thank you for a great presentation in dealing with a wide-ranging field of questions coming in. This is a topic that is still going to be a hot topic for time to come, so appreciate your time and effort in putting together the presentation and delivering it here today. Just as a reminder, today''s session has been recorded, and the archive will be available in 7 business days and will be posted to the www.ADA-audio.org website. I want to remind you that our next session is coming up on March 19, where we will -- the topic of that session is "Throwing the Switch: Empowering Advocates to Make the Most of Current Trends in Disability and Technology Policy." You can get information about that session and register for the session by visiting www.ADA-audio.org. If you have any questions regarding the ADA Audio conference series, you can contact the Great Lakes ADA Center by calling 877-232-1990. And again, if you have questions regarding the requirements of the ADA, you may reach your regional ADA Center by calling 800-949-4232. Again, I want to thank Troy for joining us today and, most of all, want to thank all of you for joining us and participating in today''s audio conference session. At this time, the session is over. For those of you in the webinar room, you simply need to close your Internet browser to exit the webinar room. Thank you, and good day.
Ladies and gentlemen, that does conclude the conference. You may all disconnect at this time. Thank you.
Thank you very much!
Youre welcome, have a great day.
Alright, thanks Troy.