Good afternoon, everyone, welcome to the ADA Conference Series, a collaborative effort of the 10 Regional Disability and Technical Assistance Centers. Today''s session, Historical Properties-There is no such thing as a Grandfather Clause. We will get into that in a few minutes. Happy New Year to everyone, hopefully the weather isn''t too terribly bad as it has been a crazy weather season thus far. A couple reminders: Today''s session is being real-time captioned at www.adagreatlakes.org. And also, a reminder about some upcoming sessions in February on the 15th we will have once again, a very popular session with the DOJ with John Wodatch. To get additional information about upcoming sessions, you can contact your Regional ADA Center by calling 1-800-949-4232. And you can also get information about a first ever three-part Regional Conference series that will begin in March. Can you get that information from your Regional ADA Center? Today we are pleased to have with us James Aaron McCullough, who is with the Disability Law Project, the Independent Living Research Utilization. James will be talking to us today as I said, about Historical Properties. And discussing what the Law requires for Historical Properties, some of the misconceptions that are out there regarding the application of the ADA. And then also, some good practices and on how to make Historical Properties Accessible to persons with Disabilities. So without further ado, because we have quite a presentation ahead of us, I will turn it over to James. I just remembered real quickly. There is a power point that you can follow along with. There are slides available. Again, on the Great Lakes website. As James goes through his presentation, he will reference the slide number to keep everyone on track. So there you go, James. I now turn it over to you.
How is everybody doing today? I guess I shouldn''t say that. I normally get a response doing this as a live training. I want to kind of set this up at the beginning to say that this is normally a 3, 4 or 5-hour training. We are going to do the best we can to cover all the material. The meat of the sandwich at the front, the remainder of the presentation is images that we have taken or collected or have had donated by other sources that have shown the ADAAG requirements in the Historic setting as they have been applied in the real world. The slides are numbered and to the extent I can I will reference the slide number for anybody who is listening and may try be to following along. Since it is archived I''m going to be sure of a transient fame. And I''m happy about that. I want to move on to slide number two with regard to housekeeping matters. I have provided a list of references, a resource guide for the materials that I drew this presentation from. In addition, I also encourage everybody to reference the, I guess our permission statement. Since most of these photos are taken by other folks or have been loaned to us, we don''t have, we discourage you from reproducing them or using them in a presentation without permission. But if you do feel the need to use them, please feel free to contact us. And we will get the adequate information for you. That being said, we are going to have a couple opportunities to ask for questions in natural breaks in the presentation. And again, you will be provided with instructions at that time. When I proposed to do this training, I decided to give it something of a Provocative Title. But it is one that people who work at the Disability and Business Technical Assistance Centers are pretty familiar with. All too often when we are talking about the built environment in Existing Facilities and in buildings that have been around before, we hear the phrase, don''t have to do anything with that, the ADA doesn''t apply. Because there is it is Grandfathered in. And I titled it this way to hammer home this point. There really is no such thing as a Grandfather Clause with regards to facilities open to the public. Under the ADA, It doesn''t matter whether this building comes from the federalist period or whether it was built in the mid-80s. If you are operating a facility that is open to the public, you will have obligations to improve accessibility over time. This does apply to the historic setting. So I encourage everybody who is move ago long to look at slide number three. I have basically placed the provisions of the ADAAG or the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines that deals with accessing buildings in the Resources Portion of the reference page that is available for download on the Great Lakes site. And then if you are looking at the slide it details buildings that have no Historically Significant Features, and the reason that I want people to consider this is because it is relevant to any project that is going to be modified, renovated, altered or added to. You have to start, when you are looking at any facility, including a Historic Facility, assuming Accessibility. Assuming Accessibility and Compliance, full Compliance with the existing Facility Standards as possible. I know from a preservationist perspective that may be anosmatic. But that is the way the law runs down, have you to assume, and you can reach full compliance with the Existing Facility Requirements. And then possibly look at exceptions if details of the Facility that are Historically Significant would be threatened by improving Accessibility. Now, not going to dwell on that issue for too long, and I assume that most of the audience does understand the basics of the ADA, and if you are not all that familiar with it, well, you can contact any of the 10 DBTACs by calling the 800 number at the bottom of every slide. The number is good nationwide. You will get the Regional Technical Assistance Center by calling that number. Anybody who owns or operates a facility that is open to the public even if it is unaltered may have obligations under the ADA. If the property is going to be altered or added to, you look at the ADA Accessibility Guidelines that deal with that, that deal with additions, alterations, and again, more specific information is available on the links provided in your resources. On slide number 4 we deal specifically with the issue the path of travel considerations and this is basically where your the folk is going to be aimed at in any existing facility that you are choosing to alter you have to consider are you making an alteration to the area of primary function? That is a legal term that makes a lot of comments. One of the few phrases that relatively unclear in the ADA, what is an area primarily function? It is basically the reason the Facility exists. If it is a restaurant, then you can the purpose is to allow people to dine there, it is the dining area. The office building, you will be looking at the offices or the retail spaces that may be contained inside that Facility. These are the areas of primary function I''m going to anticipate the next, obviously unasked question, what are you going to do with the facility is going to be unaltered if you are planning to do modifications that are only for the purpose of preservation, if no primary function is going to be significantly affected. You better assert that is the case, you better clearly understand the difference between renovation alteration, and mere maintenance. If your facility is going to be requiring such significant alterations, even to bring it up to a certain point in preservation, then you may very well have affected a primary function area, and you may have this full path of travel considerations. Now, again, you are, the path of travel considerations is essentially laid out like this. Where you are going to alter that primary space, let us use the restaurant as an example. It may very well be in a Historic Building, let us set that aside for the moment. I''m going to so significantly alter this that I have, I''m going to be doing more than mere maintenance and this is going to invoke the past travel considerations of the ADAAG. Now, under the Federal Law, you have a fairly straightforward formula called Disproportional. Essentially, you are not required to spend more than 20% of the gross cost of an alteration on Improving Accessibility. Now, this is slightly different under certain State plans including the Texas Accessibility Standard and other Accessibility Schemes that have been certified under the DOJ State Code Program. But essentially, it is this; you are going to be spending a portion of that cost to improve those paths of travel issues, basically being able to enter a Facility. Again, the slide details that the priority to be focused on actual Facility Access and Access to that area of primary function and those Secondary Spaces that serve that lie along that path of travel and serve that area of primary function. Now, another unasked question is what about Title II Entities or State or Local Government Agencies? Their Obligation is a little different. They have a Program Accessibility Requirement. While there may very well be alternatives to improving a Facility, in let us say a County Government is operating out of. The most efficient or for other reasons the chosen way may be to provide Program Access may be to actually alter the Physical Environment. If that is the case, then again, you are going to be looking back to the ADAAG that decision and that and those Accessibility Considerations need to be informed by the ADAAG. Moving on to slide number 5. I''m sorry, we will go back to slide number 4 for a second. Let us say you are in a Facility, Operating a Facility that is open to the Public and again, you are only doing those things that are related to Preservation. And you have not significantly affected an area of Primary Function, because let us say, for example, the building is in that good of shape. You still have an Obligation to improve Accessibility? That would affect Potentially the Built Environment. And arguably, you may, the requirement for Existing Facilities that are going to be open to the Public, that are going to be largely unaltered is essentially Readily Achievable Barrier Removal. This is a somewhat nebulous term under the Americans with Disabilities Act. But it makes sense in a real common sense way, in that essentially you need to do those things that are easy to do in terms of time and staging and the available Resources of the Entity that is operating that Facility. Now, this is the consideration of the point I want to out of that. This is not just a snapshot. This is an Ongoing Obligation. In those Existing Facilities that are going unaltered to improve Accessibility over time. And you might imagine why this is written quite like this, but the Rational goes like this, what is possible in six months, both in terms of the ability to stage it, both in terms of the ability to afford it are one thing. What is possible over a 10-year period of time is vastly different. So I, again, I courage you, even if you consider your space an Existing Space that is going unaltered, you do have an Obligation to engage in Readily Achievable Barrier Removal or some Effective Barrier Removal. Over time, that may actually require that you do significantly alter the Accessibility Features of a Facility. Where you do change the built environment, it needs to be at least informed by the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines. Moving on to slide number five. To not leave a preservationist focus out. I want to review the secretary of the interior standards for the treatment of Historic Properties. There is essentially four approaches or philosophies that the section of the interior details. And basically, where you are, it goes out like this. You are going to look at the Facility you are intending to Preserve or operate a building out of it. And it does happen to be a building with Historical significance and more importantly, Historical designation or one you are hoping to get designated as a historical property. We look at a focus on preservation. This again focuses on maintenance and repair of existing Historic materials. Not only just the Facilities but those aspects of the Facility that improve its Historic Quality. For example, a Federal period leaded glass. A Historically significant glass smith worked on this Facility, and, in fact, many Facilities that were standing in you know when this was constructed. So, the materials are going to be repaired and the facility is going to be maintained so you can retain the character of that property as it is, but again, as it is evolved over time. The old standards of Stabilization and Protection have been consolidated under this treatment. I encourage you to think about the implications to Accessibility ADA concerns when you are taking a preservation focus. Slide number 7 details the treatment Philosophy of Rehabilitation. This acknowledges you may need to alter Historic Properties to meet its changed use let us say it was a Private Home, now you are going to operate an antique store out of it, but you still need to retain the property''s Historic characters. If you are Rehabilitating the Property, you are going to be changing the area of primary function. What are the implications going to be to Accessibility and your Obligations under the ADA? They may be a great deal heightened. Slide number 8 details the Standard of Restoration. And this is essentially where you are trying to fold back time and bring a property to a certain period in its evolution as, for example, a Private Home or a Public Facility. Basically, peeling backs the, as all too often, the post war facade. Post World War II facade that was attached to the exterior, returning certain interior elements back to their original presentation or certain period''s presentation. This is going to have implications as well because again, you are going to be altering in all likelihood an area of Primary Function. I encourage you to think about this, this is how I got my head around this. Think about a Historic Property that was designed and developed by somebody with Historic Significance himself or herself. In fact, part of the character of its Historic Significance was the person who lived there. I''m sure there are people in the audience who have been to Monticello. Well, the I guess the time of Monticello even in the life and time of its original owner it went through so many design changes, alterations and additions, and then several times afterwards, lived in by Historically Significant People, so when it was restored and turned into a Museum of Sorts, what did they do? At what point in its history did they try to roll the clock back to? And what implications would that have considering how they had to alter the facility to return it to a certain Historically Significant Period. What implication does that have to somebody who is going to come in and say you need to improve Accessibility? Again, moving on to slide number 9. And this is where you are looking at a notion of reconstruction where you are taking maybe just the rubble of a Historically Significant Facility and re-creating something that is vanished. Or is so debilitated that it just needs to be totally reconstructed, maybe even moved offsite. I encourage you to think of this, how many times have you seen, let us say the Founder''s Home, the first Private Home built in a given Town that has been, that is either been taken offsite so it is no longer to be weathered or actually surrounded by a Facility. So that it can be used for Educational and Interpretive Purposes and Preserved Overtime. What implications to Accessibility is this going to have? It is going to change your approach to promoting Accessibility in and around that Facility, and again, affect what you have to do. Moving on to slide number 10. It is abundantly clear that most Historical Properties weren''t created to be ADA Accessible. We have only had 14 years of relative comfort with the Americans with Disabilities act. But it is abundantly clear that this is now arrived. Accessibility is now an Obligation for those who are obliged to follow the ADA and a right for those people who are covered under the ADA. But this does put preservationists who I think have worthy goals themselves at odds at times with people who want to promote Accessibility. And brings us to the purpose of our presentation here. What you do, how do you make it more Accessible? Slide 11 details that you need to consult experts. You need to develop a referral network. You need to deal with other preservationists, particularly those who are part of your Local Preservation Organization, or Preservation Society. Your State Historic and Preservation Office. And certainly be willing to tap the almost innumerable Resources of the National Parks Services and their materials on Preservation. Many of which I have provided you access to through the links and the Resource Guide. But also, you need to consider talking to Accessibility Experts and People with Disabilities. Now, your Local or State Preservation Offices may have a list of Resources and Potential Consultants. I encourage you also to utilize your Local Independent Living Centers who may have someone on their board or in their offices who are equipped to give advice those Physical and Communication Accessibility concerns. Again, you need to reach out. Moving on to slide 12, how do you make Heritage Properties or Historical Properties Accessible? And the recommendations again are drawn from the Resources detailed in your Resources Handout. That should be available for download on the site. I think this might be a good time to break and ask for questions. Peter?
The question is, in the pathway issue that you are talking about before, does that incorporate the Path Room Accessibility issue also, or is it just the right of pathway?
I didn''t want to dwell too long on that, but is those secondary spaces and particularly bathrooms that are situated to serve that area of primary function. It might not be every restroom in a Larger Facility. But at least those that serve the path of travel are at issue in the path of travel obligation issue when it is invoked. So yes the bathroom are issues.
I have a comment. I attended a University Hearing in Greensboro, and one of the main issues was their library access. The students with Disabilities had to the back of the library and wait to be admitted once they rang a bell, and also wait to be let out. Anyway, they have, after a long period of questioning the Historical value of the Building, which they did not want to debate with the front. They finally came up with a brilliant solution. They are going to create a walkway an overhead walkway between the library and the adjacent building, which happens to be the Student Center. This will allow them to make an access way both to the front of the building for Students with Disabilities.
Well, that is actually a brilliant solution, a very creative one, and I think I''m going to show you a couple good examples of that. All too often when we build a Significant Public Building in the past it was more about creating a grand duos facade, which is a sweeping long staircase that is inaccessible from a premises liability and too very dangerous by comparison to a ramp entrance. I hope to show you a couple of examples that are that good, and I would love to get pictures of that one, actually, when it is complete.
Thank you. Just curious, I''m trying to take notes here and it is very good information, will there be a possibility of getting a cassette tape of this whole program?
There will be an Audio Archive available on the Great Lakes website in about 10 days, and can you also contact your Regional ADA Center regarding getting an audiocassette of the session.
Next question, please.
What is Texas'' percentage of gross cost of alteration? Do other States have a much higher percentage than the 20% under the DOJ rule?
Texas disproportion ability standards are a little more complicated. In the end, it is just dealing with administrative issues, because our State Barrier Removal code is regulated by the State Government and every new Property altered Property, has to go through a planned inspection period if it is over a dollar amount. It just, it is dealing with some administrative issues. I''m unaware of any states that vary significantly from the 20% that the DOJ consideration in the ADAAG.
Just to clarify for everyone regarding the question, talking about the when altering an area of primary function, spending an additional 20% of the cost of the alteration on the path of travel that serves that area.
Well, and it is actually just a 20%. It is not an additional. That is just a conceptual thing. It is 20% of the gross cost of that project. And it is pretty much the same under the state schemes; at least if anybody is aware of one that is vastly different, I would love to look at. But I''m unaware of it. Texas, again, just Texas'' approach is a little more complicated but it achieves a lot of, I guess, assurance in the fact that it is been inspected. Well, why don''t we take at least one more, and then we will be breaking in just a few minutes and then we will have some time at the end as well.
This is Shelly in place of Nancy Watts. In Toledo, we are working with a Smaller Community outside of Toledo that has their Civic Center in a Historic building, which is on the first floor, which is accessible. Except they have opened up an original opera house on the second floor that has become a huge venue for entertainment once a month. The trustees, of course, the floor doesn''t to be accessible. And the only other to make it accessible would be to put in an elevator.
That may not be the only way. Without looking at the Facility, I couldn''t really comment on it, but I hope that we will reveal perhaps an alternative. Because a fully shafted elevator may not be an option, it may be impossible to install without threatening the feature. Or it may create an undo burden. But there are some Potential Alternatives. Hopefully we will reveal alternatives that may work.
Operator, hold on to that last question, and we will take that question up first when we break the next time. We will let James continue on with the presentation from here.
All right. Looking at slide number 12. How do you make the Heritage Properties or Historical Properties Accessible? You need to really start looking at your Property. You need to identify what it is about those that those character identifying properties that make it Historically Significant. Now, if it is already a Facility that is registered in the National State or a Local Preservation Office. Then you should be able to look at the documents that are available in its submission. It should be those. Then it will detail the features, its history, and that will give you a good place to start. However, you are going to want to look at the Facility, not just review the documents. Look for changed conditions, thing that have been altered, things that have degraded, things that had maybe betrayed preservationist intent. Because these may provide opportunities to go in, not only to ensure and restore its Historical character, but also to improve Access Ability if something has been so altered already. Second, you need to assess the property''s existing and required level of accessibility. You need to look apt the nature of the facility, what you are planning to use it for, who you are as an entity, versus a State or Local Governmental Entity or a Title III Entity, in a place of business that is open to the Public. And examine what your obligations are going to be under the ADA, and your opportunities to provide Accessibility or to work with existing features that maybe just need to be improved. You have needed to look at those options and your requirements underneath the preservation context. In all likelihood, there is a good reason to preserve a Historical Facility. It may very well be the county seat with the courthouse and the license bureau and Tax Office, and maybe even a Cop Shop. It may be a, it may be the, you know, the linchpin for an entire downtown area in a Rural Town. It may be air vital, it may be actually the heart of the town, and there are good reasons to again preserve it, but that is all the more reason to make it Accessible. And you may want to operate your antique store out of the Historically Significant Home to place your antiques in a context to improve business incredibility. But again, you have Obligations to make your Facility Accessible so you need to consider how the Facility is going to be used and then look at the impact of providing the Accessibility Improvements in that situation. In no way was the ADA going to be passed, basically saying that you had to pave and cut holes in the wall and so significantly alter any Facility to where you are going to just spoil it or ruin its Historical Character. I don''t think anybody wants to happen. But at the same time, Accessibility has arrived and we have to find a careful balance. That is obviously why we are here. Moving on to slide number 13. You need to review the Historical Significance. Again, locate the registry information at the National or State Office. You need to look for changed conditions and a site inspection. Encourage using any number of Readily Availability Tools on inspecting Existing Facilities, there is an excellent 15-page Checklist that would, with very little practice and a few tools that you can buy for less than 50 dollars, can you do a pretty good Assessment of the Essential Accessibility of an Existing Facility. If you are not comfortable with that, there are typically any number of Accessibility specialists, both certified by the ICC or your State Government in the case of Texas, or having been by a number of good training, such as Mr. Derry who donated some slides here. Any number of your Centers for Independent Living have people may be equipped for free or a small fee, to assist you with the review of the Facility. Again, look for changed conditions, on top of that. Look for secondary spaces and features and finishes, altered spaces and utility spaces that do not really add to the Historical Significance of a space. I''m going to show you a couple good examples of that, and some I wish I had better pictures of a little bit later. Consider how useful or how Historically Significant a broken dumb waiter in its available shaft. Utility spaces such as linen closets or wine cellars, and how these may be utilized for the limited use, limited application elevator or for providing a more Accessible Entrance. And all without jeopardizing, for example, the Historically Significant features of the facade and the grand duos staircase which may not have been available by design or stone mason. Moving on to slide 14, you need to again assess the properties existing and the required level of Accessibility. You can hire a full survey. There are any numbers of Architecture or other Accessibility Specialists. I think your slide says something different than mine. But again, that Checklist should be linked on sheet of references. But you should also consider this. You may have State Laws that affect some of your solutions. There are States that prohibit the use of, for example, platform lists. So when you are considering what solutions may meet your Accessibility needs, you need to look at the Federal Requirements and then again, look at your State and Personally Local Ordinances that affect the built environment because that may limit your options. Moving on to slide 15. You need to evaluate your options, again, with the preservation intent in mind. You need to consider that your solution does not need to damage, so significantly damage the Facility that it is going to renter it useless from a preservation or Historically, or Historical Impact. Excuse me, a, you don''t want to so impact a Facility that you have negated its Historical Significance. Any solution that you do find needs to preserve that, but enhance Accessibility and be safe. And again, you can plan this over time. Particularly with regards to, for example, a mom-and-pop shop, operating a small antique store. What may be again feasible within, you know, 10 years not be possible within 6 months. So you may want to plan your preservation over time just to say, or whether your alterations to promote Accessibility over time, and in the same way, in all likelihood, you are planning on your Preservation Approached your Maintenance Approach. Moving on to slide 16. The main priorities that you should focus on when you are Enhancing Accessibility are making a main or prominent Public entrance Accessible. Making sure that the area primary uses accessible path of travel from an Accessible entrance. You need to focus on the ability to provide goods and services in programs if you are a State or Local Government Entity in an Accessible manner. You need to, as a third concern, again provide those Accessible restrooms where there is a Public Restroom Provided. And lastly, access to other amenities and other secondary spaces. Those spaces that are somewhat incidental, for example, a phone bank or gifts shop that is secondary to the restaurant itself. Should be your last consideration. Not you are last, but certainly last in this list of priorities. Moving on to slide number 17 for those follow ago long. Again, your, with regardless to your building site, the Accessible route is essential. The accessible route from passenger drop-off zones, sidewalks, parking spaces, needs to be accessible. And the , you to be consider the cross slope, the surface texture, the width, now, I don''t know how good this photo turned out. But this is a parking lot behind the accessible home where you have to cross an alley, but if you can make this out, it is loose Chad. This is gravel. I also like the handicapped parking designated sign, which I think is about a foot and a half off the ground. Clearly, they have not achieved their accessible route. And it is otherwise a fairly accessible building. Second to that, the route should be a minimum of three feet wide the surface needs to be stable from slip resistance. Your maximum cross slope should be 1 to 20. Basically, you shouldn''t have a steep cross slope. You need to consider incorporating ramps or a re-grade. Here is an example. I think you will get a better picture of this later, where they have just decided to turn a Secondary Entrance into a Main Entrance for all visitors to this Historical Home that is now a Museum. You will get a better shot of it in the presentation; I don''t think there is a big problem with this route. They have managed to integrate it well with the landscaping. It is of materials common to, at the time of construction, that do affect modern techniques of insulation. It is a good route. Slide number 19. Here is a better look at it. Whenever possible, you need to Provide Access to the Main Entrance, but at least one Public Entrance since the main use area is required to be Accessible. And where there are, what you might consider the main entrance, where that is not accessible. You need to provide Directional Signage to the Accessible Entrance. Here is one of the Historical features of this home is this, for this area, rather grandstand case and facade and trying to ramp that would be to preservation''s mind a travesty. So again, you may need to re-grade, incorporate the ramp, the installation of a wheelchair lift may be necessary, or you may need to create an entirely new entrance. Moving on to slide number 21, you need to also consider Interior and Circulation Access. How does somebody move about within the Facility? Here is a picture of a floor lift, which has been installed in a Historically Significant Hotel in Washington, D.C. I heard this was the Ritz Carlton, but I have been there, and I don''t think this is where it is at, the image on slide 21, but a fairly ingenious fix. You may also be required to modifying at least one bathroom. And you may need to reposition phones or alarms and you may need to add Accessible Signage. In addition, you may need to modify a door and control, add hardware to Improve Accessibility and access to interior spaces. Moving on to slide number 2. And there may be alternatives that are necessary. You may need to relocate services. You may need to build an addition to preserve Historical Significant of a Facility to provide full Access to the Services and Programs and Goods Offers in that location. And you may have other programmatic solutions, particularly with regards to the delivery of services from a State or Local Governmental Entity, which may include a whole host of issues such as Home Delivery Services, telephonic services on line etcetera. If you have questions about a Program Solution, that is a whole other Presentation. But there may very well be alternatives to Barrier Removal that are necessary to preserve the Historical context. Now, I think we need to break for questions before we move on to the minimum ADAAG Requirements.
All right. Gregory, let us go ahead and take questions again. Give a brief update on how they can get in to ask questions.
My question is, I have had dealings with a Historic train. And the general manager says the train is used for a scenic excursion, and that the Department of Transportation says they are exempt from any kind of Laws and as everybody knows the old trains, the entrance to the train and the aisles are just too narrow to have Accessibility. I just wanted to know what the thoughts and what the, what would regulate that?
The person''s wrong. Historic vehicles are not exempt from coverage. But again, you have the same consideration. You are not required to so alter them as you eliminate its Historical Significance. So the key would be to find a solution to make them more Accessible. It may necessity temporarily removing number of the bench seats to allow at least for a couple of people using Mobility Aids to Access the Facility. It may, or access the vehicle it may require the installation of a platform lift to get somebody on safely. And again, that may not be an option. There may not be a way where that is technically feasible. If you can''t improve accessibility of that vehicle their maybe a way to provide as much as possible in that experience in another waist you have seen this in any number of places but particularly with regards to Accessible Vehicles and Historically Significant or Geographically Significant areas that are Largely Inaccessible. They may provide a diorama experience some sort of installation of multimedia experience. Just because the vehicle is, perhaps unable to be altered without threatening its significance or it may be unable to be altered because it is technically infeasible to do so, doesn''t mean their ADA Obligation ends.
Okay. Thank you.
Next question please?
I could not find the PowerPoint slides - how do I get them?
You need to go to the Great Lakes website at www.adagreatlakes.org. There is a link on the home page and follow that to get to the power point presentation.
Go ahead with the next question please.
A friend of mine lives in a condo. Her mother is disabled. There are stairs to enter the building. There are no stairs out of the garbage entry. Her association has told her to have her mother use that entrance. Is this appropriate?
Well, it may or may not be. But what I''m going to encourage that caller to do is to call back on the 1-800-949-4232 ADA hotline number and speak to a Technical Assistant about that.
Yeah, better address that. The last question, please.
I have two questions, the first one regarding modes of travel. You think you can clarify how to calculate that 20% a little more?
There is any number of resources that will clarify that that are available on the links that I gave you. If you have if you still have a concern after reviewing those, call the TA line. It is kind of complicated and really would eat up a little bit too much of the time.
And the other one, does Historic Preservation Section in the ADAAG allow a 1 to 20? You know slide 18?
Well, again, there is, that is going to be a maximum cross float that is going to be allowed. I put that there for maximum. The specifics that you follow are the standards of, again, the standards for Existing Buildings. And there are set of exceptions which we are about to go into. But I wanted to place those in context.
It is not 1 to 50.
Well, that is a maximum cross slope. Again, these are, that may have actually been a typo, but the specific provisions are detailed in the links.
The maximum cross slope is 1 to 50.
Right. Well, there may be an exception but we will talk about that a little bit later.
Okay. Next question, please?
Yes, I was just wondering which 15-page Checklist you use and how I could get it?
Well, again, I provided a link for that in the Resource Guide, I believe, and I will double-check that before the end of the presentation. But it is readily available on the Internet. It is the Existing Building Checklist. Or what some people call the Checklist for Readily Achievable Barrier Removal. I did provide a link for that on the resources on ADA and Historical Preservation. You can go right to that Checklist and download an HTML version or PDF version.
James you did provide the URL''s for those links and materials. We have time for one more question, James, before we push on?
Sure, it goes pretty quickly after this.
Sure. Let us take more questions, then.
We still have 8 questions in cue.
Hello, I also have three, but two are questions, one is a comment. And the first one, the comment I will give, is I have been on Historic Trains and I have seen where they have just made a space for, removed some seats and made a great space for wheelchairs, especially up in Alaska. And they also had a very nice lift, kind of similar to what Amtrak uses here in the United States. Two questions. The first one deals with here in the city of Tuscumbia, the birthplace of Helen Keller, we have a beautiful Historic Courthouse. But there is not one restroom you can into because of the doorways being so narrow. I would like to comment on that, and trying to get that matter straightened out. The second one, second question deals with, a development company has come in, and they have restored the town beautiful limit however, one building in particular, the top two floors are apartments. The first floor is all businesses, it is like a block of businesses, but they have put in balconies, the balconies have not been in there the last 35 or 45 years for other businesses. And to get to the balcony is a stairway only. And the other problem also deals with doors, if you can give me any answers to doors opening inward for somebody in a wheelchair getting stuck if there is a fire. Thank you.
That is actually several questions, and I''m actually going to punt on that one. I''m going to encourage you to contact me directly afterwards.
Only because it would take me a deal of time, and again, we, we will, I will give you more context information at the end of the presentation, okay?
I would like to answer your questions in order and very specifically, okay?
Okay. Thank you.
Moving on to the next question, let us make this one the last one until we get to some questions at the end. Go ahead, Operator, the last question for this time period.
We had a question about whether it is a requirement to post a sign designating where the accessible entrance is located or is it just a suggestion.
The question regarding whether it was required to post a sign designating where the accessible entrance is located.
It is a suggestion. But you have to designate the accessible entrance if all entrances are not. And to the extent that you have an obligation to make your Facility Accessible, It is not going to be required that you post signs along the route. But at the very least, you should designate that it is around the corner.
Okay. And are the new ADAAG''s enforceable yet?
No. Do you know when they will be in? No. Say two-years minimal.
Okay. Thank you.
We will go ahead and James, save rest of those questions and we will let James continue.
All right. Good questions, folks, actually. Again, I have mainly delivered these architects so I''m always peppered with very specific questions, and I have to remind them that I''m an Attorney and not an Architect. I''m happy to hear the comments you are making. It is possible to make most things Accessible. Moving on to slide 23. The reason that we broke is because I wanted to break in front of this slide. The following slide has a flow chart that I borrow heavily from the Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association Guidelines on Historical Preservation in the Americans with Disability. The reason that you do not have that as a resource is I haven''t been able to get them to send me 1,000 copies of it, and they don''t have it online, and I don''t believe they are printing any more. But I put together a flow chart that is informed by theirs. Essentially, it is this. Before we move on to slide 24. If you go through the process that we detailed before, that three-part process, and you evaluate the Historical Significance of the Facility the available in deed of possibility requirements and looked at that within the Potential Solutions within the preservation context, and you found that you cannot do everything in lock step the ADAAG requirements or the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility requirements. There is a set of minimum ADAAG Requirements that you can default too. But I want to go through the process. And the next slide kind of details that. I''m not as fast with Power Point or Microsoft as I should be, so slide number 24 is a little bit, it is unattractive, but I think it makes the point. It leads you through a set of questions where you have a Historical Facility or a Site or a Vehicle, and you need to alter it to make it more accessible. And it asks where your money comes from, and it details the process, where you need to contact the Federal or State Preservation Office. Takes you through the requirement that you go through that three steps, consult with experts and interested parties but if you make a determination that the Historical Significance threatened, then you can default to a minimum set of Disability Requirements. If you determined what makes that Facility, Site or Vehicle Historically Significantly is not going to be threatened and you need to default to the requirements of the ADAAG, the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines. So you have to go through the entire consideration process, you don''t start out at the beginning saying this is what I need to Protect. I''m not going to do anything, this is, that is that old Grandfather Notion that we know is not true or an available defense. If you go through the determination as the flow chart directs, there is a set of Alternative Minimal Accessibility Requirements. Essentially they go like this. An Accessible Route is only required from one side Access Point. So you need one Access Route and it doesn''t have to be the main. In some circumstances you can consider a steeper Ramp. The maximum slope on a ramp is 1 to 12 but is a set of Alternative Standards for very Short Ramps and don''t change a great deal of elevation. You will see a good picture of when this is utilized successfully, the third is entrance again that may not be used by the General Public. May provide access. And number four, if this is allowed under State and Local Law, although it may be prohibited. An Accessible Toilet Room may be configured to be Unisex. Because you may need to slide, let us say a Male/Female toilet room together to provide adequate Accessibility for somebody using a Mobility Aid. These are the Alternative Standards that are only available if an Element is threatened. You don''t get to default to them all. You only get to default to the one that is going to solve your problem with regard to which Element is threatened. Now, there is a-I guess a little character I don''t recognize, but essentially this, if even after that, you still feel that the Historically Significant Characters are going to be threatened, even though Minimal Requirements may be waived by a designated Historical preservation officer, either at the council on historical preservation, the advisory council at the national parks'' service or a state historical Preservation Office. But again, if you look at their procedures in most cases, you are going to have to write a document that you have gone through the entire process. That you haven''t found an alternative, you haven''t found these alternative minimal Accessibility Requirements to be sufficient and not threaten, and then you are going to have to get that statement rendered in writing. And even then, your ADA Obligations really don''t end because you will have to find some other way to provide that service or at least that experience. So it, again, it is, I guess this flow chart is up there basically to guide you through the process, give you a little bit of information and contact information. But to make it abundantly clear that the problem isn''t, what am I trying to protect? It is also can I make this work? Moving on to slide number 25. Again, at least one Accessible Entrance must be available to People with Mobility Impairments, Ramp with no, with a slope no greater than 1 to 6. So you can go to a very steep ramp but it can run only a change in elevation of two inches or more. Typically to get over a small step or the sill of a door or rather 2 feet to get over small steps or the sill of the door. You may use that as part of your Accessible Route. You also have one Accessible Public Entrance, it is to be unlocked during business hours; it is unacceptable that it be locked. Someone must be able to Access it during all business hours. For security reasons any number of Facilities may have a locked door, I''m going to show you one that does, but again, they have a call button that manned during all business hours. Moving on to slide 26. If toilets are provided, then at least one must be situated on the Accessible Route. It must be Accessible. And you can default to Unisex Toilet. You must provide Accessibility to all Publicly used spaces and ideally on the same level as the Accessible Entrance they need to be located by a person who is seated. Slide number 27, you can wave these Minimal Requirements, but only after a thorough good faith review. Going through that detailed process. And a designated Historic Preservation Officer can only waive it. Now we are into the fun stuff. Going to try to get through this quickly and allow a few minutes for questioning. Most of these questions are not mine. If they are ones I have taken, I''m familiar; I''m permissible with their use. But I have been prohibited with some of them. Moving ahead to slide 29. I have decided not to name the Town, particularly or the Facility because you are going to see some of these places with Barriers and I think clearly with ADA violations to the extent that I intend to be working with some of these Facilities and have, I tried to protect their name a little bit. That is why the ludicrous name and the city of black acres, Texas. I have at least acknowledged it is in Texas that will become more apparent later. I couldn''t hide that. Slide 29 again, it shows a very Historically Significant Mansion that survived the hurricane of 1900 that destroyed most of, a significant amounts in the Houston gulf coast. Slide 30 shows it was a survivor of the 1900 storm, and it has been designated a State Historical Property by the State Historical Survey Committee. Slide number 31 shows you a good view again of that beautiful facade and that fairly high, I think 15-stair staircase that was the main entrance of this home. Until the, I think mid-80s, when it actually was acquired by the Local Historical Preservation Office. And then slide number 32 gives you a better view and shows you some of the features that make this a lovely, Historically Significant Home. Some of the fantastic there is a line in word as reflected back behind the railing. Slide number 33 again shows a masonry frees of the line had, 34 shows you another side entrance in the former solution that they had to improve accessibility to what is now a Public Museum as you can see there is a staircase, an exterior staircase list behind this gate where we had slide 35. Another view of that slide 36 is as you can see this is a, I never particularly like this device, I''m not going to say that they are totally unsafe but often hard to manipulate and they do detract from the attractiveness to this facade. The plywood, there is a hurricane threatening when I''m down here taking these photos, that is the only reason I can crawl over these properties, because everyone is trying to tuck in and hide from the storm. So I''m down there like a fool trying to get these photos for you folks. Slide number 37. Again provides view of that and again this is a semi permanent installation. The damage is repairable. It is still there, I know it is due to be taken out fairly soon. And the reason why is because they have decided to provide a main entrance to their tour on an Alternative Route. They have done a lot to promote Accessibility and maintain the character of the entire site. So moving ahead to slides 38, 39 and 40. Can you see this route; a successful route runs along this wall. And there is adequate signage to designate where it is. Slide number 41 again shows their preparations to be knocked over by a hurricane and flooded. But slide number 42 shows you another view. Actually, this is coming in from that parking lot we had seen. Again they provided adequate signage, the sidewalk is fairly newly poured and it comports with the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines, slide number 43 shows new entrances that were cut into an existing bottom level, which is largely basement. Slide number 44 shows you the new Public Entrance. And again, it is-they have had to replace the hardware with ADA Compliant door hardware. They have taken what was a double set of doors and kept the original equipment and ran the band of steel across the top and created one large door that was wide enough when it swung open to allow for passage if somebody uses the mobility device. Slide number 45 again shows their intercom system and their card access, not only have they insured that somebody''s going to be able to contact somebody in the ground floor which is actually a gift shop and information center in the beginning of the tour. But they have promoted a security for their own personnel by providing this card reader that unlocks the door. Slide number 46 is a peek through that window, and this is a change in elevation of almost 2 feet over the length of an entirely, I want to say at least 20 feet. And I''m kind of peeking through the window, that is my shadow for anybody who can see that. And again, so there is a change in elevation, but they have graded it down, they have used bricks that were on, that were salvaged from the Facility to take you to a Facility where they have installed a shop and the beginning of the tour. Now, what I don''t have pictures of is the interior where they have actually used again a cove space, a wine cellar, linen closet and a few other inessential secondary spaces to install a limited use application elevator or Lula to provide access to other levels. The reason why I don''t have pictures of it because they don''t allow you to take pictures inside the facility because they sell them. Slide 47 is a better shot of their parking lot and this is where they failed to provide what I consider a designated parking space or one that is particularly safe. Slide number 48 shows evidence of some reasons, at least certainly on the gulf coast to alter a facility here, the installation of several air conditioning units, I think anybody who has been to the Texas gulf coast in the middle of August, will agree that maybe you should alter some Significantly Historically Buildings to provide relief from the heat. 49 is just down the street, 10 blocks from the original mansion I was showing you. This is another site that is operated by the Local Preservation Board. Slide 50 shows what they consider a curb cut to anybody who can look at this. There is at least 2 inch drop from the edge to the curb to the route surface and where they tried to ramp down using bricks. They have had a great deal of subsidence since we are talking about the gulf coast of Texas, the sidewalks and the buildings are all sinking into the mud, the bayous or bays this is a noncompliant curb cut that somebody made an effort in the last few years to patch. Slide number 51 shows their alternative entrance into this facility. However, my quarrel with this is that there is no curb cut. That you can see the access aisle besides the designated space is probably adequate. But at the end of it, there is a four to five-inch curb and there is no access into this beautiful ramp that you see on the back of the Facility and the widened door that they have installed. So they get an effort, but a D-minus for how they have actual actualized and a d minus for compliance. Slide number 52, again, gives you a better shot of this. They have done a pretty good job in placing a ramp that doesn''t detract from the Historical Significance, and the character of the building. However, slide number 52 shows evidence of poor thinking in terms of the choice of door hardware. This is newly installed door hardware; they could have gotten more Accessible Door hardware. This requires about 12 foot-pounds of force to operate and isn''t anywhere close to Compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Here is the front of the Facility, a few from the street side and again, it is being altered as we speak. Can you see from the construction? Now as you can see on slide 54, can you see the use of an alternative ramp taking you from the plain of the porch to the plain of the door sill. They have installed a temporary ramp. That is permissible, this one I think could use a bit of maintenance, turning on the end. But it is steeper than a one to twelve slope. But perfectly permissable in its a change of only 4 inches. Slide number 55 gives you a closer view of that. And some of their maintenance, who as, they shouldn''t have placed it on top of a welcoming mat. That is part of their problems. Slide 56 shows you that they have provided an alternative way to provide access to that raised front porch. For those of you that can''t see, there is a long sweeping sidewalk that runs the entire length of the property. And they have run a new run of it back behind some plantings and basically used a change in level in landscaping. To place a ramp that doesn''t, again, to the porch, it doesn''t distract from its Historical Features. Slide 57 provides you a little better view. Curving around some landscaping. Slide 58 a few from the side. Showing you that that is a smooth transition, and a ramp that comports with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Accessibility Guidelines. And I guess slide 59 for whatever reason is another closer shot. Slide 60 takes you to the side and toward the back of the property. There is, this is a picture over the shot of a fountain that was actually reclaimed from New Orleans. This was actually stolen from the property and afterwards it had been designated a Historical Site and was reclaimed after 20 years and reinstalled in the property near its approximate location. But this is a shot of another alternative ramp where they have used reclaimed bricks from the site to ramp up into the sill of the door that you can see better in slide 61. And slide 62. In slide 63 it shows you why they did this. This is actually a dining and meeting room, and a peek through the door shows you that it is set up for regular banquets and they have done a lot to promote accessibility into this facility because it is open for rent to the public. Slide 64 moves on to an old reclaimed federal building downtown of this unnamed city in Texas. Slide 65 again shows this was a federal building that shows the relationship to the parking and this broad expansive walkway of well installed pavers to this building that rises up on a-almost a two-foot concrete rise.
James, I know we have a lot of great pictures there. We are getting short on time. Would it be possible to knock out some questions? Or were there some pictures that you particularly wanted to get to?
There is a couple I wanted to get to. Slide number 69. The same federal building, the problem with it is they provide adequate signage and there is a ramp on the backside of the building, but there is a gate and a door that are locked. The alternative Accessible entrance designated by the sign again fails because in practice, they have left a gate and a door locked. Moving forward to slide 70, 71 and 72, this is actually the County Historical Museum, which has found, I think the most knowledgeable solution and one that evidences a lot of creativity. There is not a lot of chance to provide access to a change in elevation that is almost 8 feet with that grand staircase. There is not enough sidewalk to it. Now, their novel solution is to partner with the owner of the building next door. On slide 73 it shows you that the slide on the front door of the museum, which points you to the Accessible Entrance which is actually next-door in a Residential Site. On slide 74, Artist is loss for lease now flashing forward several over the next 10 or 15 slides. Slide 77 shows you the interior of that space. The next three or four slides show you take you to slide 79. Which leads you into a bank of elevators serving that loft space or that residential space that is next door. You move forward to slide 80 and 81. It shows you the elevator that is now been installed and the County Historical Museum. That actually has doors on both sides that serve both buildings. And during again during hours that it is been open the public. It is programmed to open to the museum and can be sealed from the inside of the museum. But it always opens on the Residential Side. This was a compromise where the County Historical Museum partnered with Private Entities to provide Accessibility in a Residential space and the Historical Building. It is a solution that evidences the creative thinking that you often have to move toward to bridge that gap between preserving Historically Significant Facilities and promoting Accessibility as required under Law. That is a little bit rushed. Why don''t we move forward with any remaining questions?
All right. Thanks for rushing that along. For a quick clarification, the URL''s that James referenced during his presentation are available in the materials and the document is entitled resources on the ADA. And that is where you will find the Checklist and all the other Resources that James has referred to. I want to bring Gregory back in. Because we are short of time, I would ask that callers please limit themselves to one question. We can get too as many as possible before the bottom of the hour. So Gregory, why don''t you go ahead and give us our first caller, please.
It is a comment. You were wondering where the lease from your slide 21 or slide 84 is located whether it was a Ritz Carlton Hotel? If it is in Rose Cliff in Newport, preservation society and we really have a great use for it. So this is a genius solution. That is where it is.
I''m glad to know where it is. Yeah, that is helpful to know.
Can we have our next caller, please?
The next question is in Department Stores, the aisles are quite accessible for people in wheelchairs. However, if they want to go in and look at specific merchandise, those areas are very narrow. How does the ADA address this issue?
I would encourage you to contact the Regional ADA Center by calling 800-949-4232 and a Technical Assistance Specialist can help you that question. Can we go ahead and take the next question.
I just had a hard time accessing your Power Point, where exactly do I find that on the website?
I''m at the website, but there is nowhere to go once you get to that point.
we will get back to you after the call is finished and get you that information.
We were having trouble accessing the Power point too.
We will solve that problem, if we can keep the questions to the subject matter, we will try to deal with the Technical things at the end, and I apologize for that.
Hi, I''m out in Portland, Oregon, I''m just wondering you have any knowledge or resources about Historical Lighthouses, and where there is guided tours as well as other activities in the lighthouse as to if there are any, I have checked with all the resources I can think of to find alternative means of providing compatible experience.
There is a great deal of guidance, and I''m going to leave my direct number for anybody who wants to call. Lighthouse represents a real Technical Barrier. There is no doubt about it. It presents a Barrier. Historical Lighthouses, there is no way currently available to provide vertical access all the way top of most tour able lighthouses in a way that wouldn''t ruin its Historical character. Typically, you are looking at multimedia experiences if you want more information on that call me directly and I will provide that information.
The question that we have is that you make a lot of statements about public access, but you don''t mention employee usage within the historic building.
Employee use, any workplace accommodation that may affect a change in the built environment is going to be informed by the ADAAG at very minimal, but it is an Individual Workplace Accommodation Issue. It has to be adequate and reasonable and it has to not place a burden on the employer. It is going to become a fall potentially or place at risk a Historically Significant Element. So you are going to be going through the same analysis.
It is a different issue looking at Title I undue hardship for the employer verses looking at it with the requirements of a place of accommodation or Title II entity.
It is essentially the same analysis. Except you have to find an Accommodation that is going to be effective for that person.
For the employee, right.
So, why don''t we move on to the next question?
Yes. Go ahead. Operator, why don''t you go ahead and give us our next question, please.
Hi, Dan Holt over at the office. Could you explain the method to determine if you will damage the Historical fabric or the change the Historical Nature of the Facility?
Well, the, there is not a method per say, I mean, you, after you have gone through that part of the analysis, and then you are confronted with those, what you are aware of through review of documentation and inspection of this site, are those parts of that facility that make it Historically Significant. Then you look at the available solutions, now if those solutions threaten that element, then you can default to a minimal set of standards. It is, there is not a, I guess a step-by-step mechanism, because it is going to vary site-by-site and feature-by-feature.
Don''t you have to get agreement from a State Historical Preservation Officer?
Get agreement. Again, you will have to look at your State or Local Ordinances and State Laws that impact that. They may have an Administrative Process that adds an additional burden to it. I can''t comment how that operates in every jurisdiction.
Next question, please?
All right. We then, then we either disappointed everyone or satisfactorily answered him or her.
Well, it is just about the bottom of the hour, as it is, James, anything that you would like to add in summation after, we have gone through quite a few slides?
I know there was a lot of material. But I didn''t want to cheat anybody. I want to encourage you, there is a lot of expertise available for all your Disability and Technical Assistance Centers including our great host, The Great Lakes ADA and IT Center. And I want to encourage you to call that 1-800-949-4232 number with your Accessibility and Compliance Questions. I gave you lot of Resources that I drew this, I guess thumbnail sketch of Historical preservation from, so I encourage you to review those, but to those people that we promised to get back with specifically, I want to encourage you to contact me directly. You can go to our website, which is dlrp.org. That is Disability Law Resource Project firstname.lastname@example.org and directs a question to me at email@example.com. I''m going to State that again. firstname.lastname@example.org. I can give you the 1800 number, but that is not going to work unless you are in the five states we serve. Our direct phone number is 713-520-0232. And there is I think three or four people we promised to deal with specifically in answering their questions, and I want to, I want to encourage you to call or e-mail me, and I will get back with you as quickly as I can.
Excellent. Thanks, James. For those Individuals that had difficult with the Power Point please contact your Regional DBTAC at the 800-949-4232 numbers so we can get that straightened out so you can have access to that. I would like to thank James for his time, Individuals, give us, provide us with a deal of their time in just preparing these presentations, and then being with us for the 90 minutes for the audio sessions. We certainly thank James. He has kicked off the New Year with a great presentation. For those of you that still have questions out there regarding the topic, again, I encourage you to contact your Regional ADA Center at 800-949-4232. An audio archive as well as the written transcript from today''s session will be available on the Great Lakes website in approximately 10 days at www.adagreatlakes.org. I would encourage you to contact your Regional ADA Center for upcoming sessions including the February 15th session. Very popular session with John Woe Dutch from the Department of Justice entitled ask the Department of Justice. And hope that all of you will be able to join us for the three-part Reasonable Accommodation Series, which begins in March. Once again, thanks to James and thanks to all of you, the participants of the ADA Audio Conference Session. Thank you and have a great day.